Engine repair

[tel76]

If they were meant to be removed then why go to the trouble of drilling a larger hole and counter sinking it to accept the insert ??

[66andBlue]

Eric,
do you mean the threaded inserts into the holes or the metal strips in the slots?
At the moment we are discussing the strips in the slots not the threaded inserts.

[tel76]

Yes, I am also discussing the metal inserts as per my picture on reply # 7 ( you kindly posted it for me).
Have a look at reply # 44 from Gerd he uses the word filler I use the word insert.

[66andBlue]

Then my answer to your question "If they were meant to be removed then why go to the trouble of drilling ...." is simply what MB states in addendum:
"Deeper and thus wider cooling slots were provided in the cylinder crankcase of type 280 SL/8. Thus more favorable temperatures are obtained in the combustion chamber region."
Does not sound like they were drilled deeper to accept fillers/inserts/strips what ever we may call them, especially when the filler makes the passage narrower again.
Anyway lets find an original late untouched M130 engine and open it up.  

[Benz Dr.]

Interesting discussion. I've never seen these inserts but I am aware that the late engines are quite a bit different than the earlier 280SE version. There are things that I've never seen and I'm sure I've seen things that no one else has - big deal . I'm supposed to see things, if they're there to see.

As for pulling an engine in 6 hours? I did it once in about 7 hours all by myself, which I think is pretty good as it was an auto trans car. This engine was clean and not rusty. I had to work my ass off to do it in that amount of time, BTW.
 I remove the manifolds and injection lines before pulling the engine. Sometimes this stuff won't come apart and the exhaust pipes are rusted into the exhaust manifolds. So yeah, six hours with some help to lift the engine out sounds about right if everything comes apart OK. A day and half if it's the dog's breakfast isn't beyond acceptable either. Or, I could twist off bolts and damage stuff along the way and let the machine shop take care of it, or you, for a price.



 

[stickandrudderman]

Many years ago I quoted somebody £350 to remove & refit their 500SEL M117 engine, repair No.8 plug thread.
He dropped the car off at 9AM and at 4PM I rang him to say the car's ready.
He came to collect but refused to pay the £350.00 "because I only dropped it off at 9 this morning, I'm not paying you £350.00 for a day's work".
I haven't made that mistake since..........

[ja17]

Good strategy Alfred, now finding someone with a very late engine that is ready to be opened up!

[hkollan]

Good strategy Alfred, now finding someone with a very late engine that is ready to be opened up!

Joe, as you've suggested earlier, I think the only way to know  the facts about these inserts is to get this documented from Mercedes.
Opening one engine even if original latest version m130 would not really prove much.
A reason for the inserts could be, if a late factory exchange engine block with the wider water jackets were bored to oversize thus
further thinning the cylinderwalls, they deemed it necessary to reinforce the waterchannels with the metalstrips.
That could explain why the inserts would not be found  in every late engine block.

Hans

[ja17]

Hello Hans,
Yes, I agree, some documentation would be best. However, I did see these strips with my own eyes, in a standard bore block, as delivered from Mercedes back in 1974. I took the block out of the factory crate myself. After removing the strips I assembled and installed the engine    and with no consequence.

The fact that replacement strips do not seem to have ever been available, from Mercedes, as a replacement part in case of loss or damage is also a mystery.  

In addition, without documentation, there is no way to tell for sure that the metal inserts were used in all the latest engines?  Possibly the production run of the late  engines originated without them, then they were added later in the production of the later blocks, when problems arose?

mystery continues~

[Wayne]

If you stated your price at the outset how can someone challenge your fee, certainly not what I would do.

I wonder how many garages keep time sheets of exactly what work has been carried out , this us what I do in my business, it's simple, the time spent plus cost of ancillaries....no argument,all profit built I to the hourly rate. If not a fixed fee agreed at outset.

Sadly that doesn't seem the case from what I've seen so far..

Anyway I've come to agreement with crewe and hopefully my car us on its way to storage right now.

My experience so far doesn't fill me with confidence, I can however see why so many do their own work and learn how to do things without relying  on professionals

[Benz Dr.]

If you stated your price at the outset how can someone challenge your fee, certainly not what I would do.

I wonder how many garages keep time sheets of exactly what work has been carried out , this us what I do in my business, it's simple, the time spent plus cost of ancillaries....no argument,all profit built I to the hourly rate. If not a fixed fee agreed at outset.

Sadly that doesn't seem the case from what I've seen so far..

Anyway I've come to agreement with crewe and hopefully my car us on its way to storage right now.

My experience so far doesn't fill me with confidence, I can however see why so many do their own work and learn how to do things without relying  on professionals

I have a flat rate on some jobs but most of it is time and material. We have a time clock for daily hours plus log books for each car we work on. It's amazing to me how many hours you can spend on a full restoration.

Some owners can do a lot on their own. If you have never rebuilt an engine before and have limited mechanical skills or equipment, it's best left to someone who knows. I used to assemble all of my cylinder heads in house, and I still could, but I now have my machine shop do it as a package. My time is better spent on other things.

Anyone who can do a whole car without relying on outside help probably wouldn't even bother to post here.  

[Wayne]

So as yet no definitive answer for the inserts ?

Anyway I'm going for recon engine and auto transmission, bored of all the hassle , has anyone dealt with the following firm

http://mobil.german-spob.de/?&nr=2d558ec5b7f3a3922d610a7315162f69

Any positive feedback

I just want something to drop in no hassle

[ja17]

Hello Wayne,

Are you referring to the thread inserts or the metal strips. The thread inserts on the latest version M130 are factory correct. So far we do not have any actual documentation or proof about the metal strips.

[Wayne]

Sorry ....I was referring to the metal inserts to see if anyone had the final answer

W

[Wayne]

I've had this from someone who has possession of my original engine,he is a machine shop and again has not seen this block with the inserts. HIs email below mentions the inserts and the fitting of liners but he's not quite sure if it will work due to slots in the block

His email,
Hi Wayne, the bore size is 87mm, this should also relate to the piston.
Having had a breif look at the drawing and measured the depth of the "slot" (32mm) i am a bit concerned that the liner won't have any support at the slot which could allow the liner to move at this point causing a failure.

Whilst we would theoretically be replacing material removed, thinwall liners aren't as strong as the block material when not supported,
 I have made further enquiries and will let you as and when

Does anyone have any thoughts

Thanks

W

[tel76]

87mm is second o/s, you could go to 87.5mm, this will depend on the amount of wear in the cylinders.

[Bill Sgro]

Did we ever get a definitive answer on the strips in the slits between the cylinders in the block?

[ja17]

No factual documentation as of this time.

[stickandrudderman]

And Wayne spat the dummy and left....................