What if? (Pagoda Design Changes)

[hauser]

What if you were part of the design team that developed the Pagoda W113 into what it bacame?  What changes would you make, if any knowing what you know and have experienced with your Pagoda? Todays modern technology does not apply in this case.



1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

[hauser]

I would change two things. First I would make the soft top storage compartment a couple inches bigger. Second I would redesign the front bumper and get rid of the flat area for the license plate. I would give it a more uniform look and continue the same shape as the ends.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

[A Dalton]

ALL Aluminum......

[Cees Klumper]

Less nose dive on braking.
A bit (15-20%) more power from that big engine, or
A 15-20% weight reduction.
More room to work under / behind the dash.


Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[mdsalemi]

Hello Folks,

My suggestion as a winter project for everyone is to get the Brooklands "Gold Portfolio" for the 230/250/280SL which is a collection of dozens of test reports and articles on the 113 from 1963 through 1989 from many different car magazines.

You'll see that many of the complaints we have as we "strighten out" our cars have existed since conception...we are NOT discovering anything new!  So as to the thread question:

1)  Brake Diving.  Solutions existed at the time and there was no reason for this crap after the 1st or 2nd model year.  How it got out of design and engineering with this is beyond me.

2)  Tad bit more power.  Perhaps a supercharger like the 190? I know it wasn't factory, but it would be nice.

3)  Overdrive, either electric (common at the time) or a 5th gear.  The reason the ZF 5 speed is rare today is that it was rare in the 1960s and long waits and high prices equalled few takers.

4)  Spin on oil filter like the rest of the world.

5)  Less complex fuel injection: even in the 60's dealers didn't fool with it, it had to go to a regional service center...

6)  Improved wipers and faster wiper speed.

7)  Fully adjustable suspension w/o adding or subtracting parts.  The use of different height spring pads to achieve proper camber is poor engineering.  You should be able to adjust castor, camber and toe in/toe out with tools not parts!

 Swing Axles?  How about semi-trailing arms?  Mercedes had to patent their swing axle to get it to work "right" and even this is somewhat of a joke as the car goes to the edge.  Read all the reviews: nobody has ever said anything good about swing axles, and those of you with a long memory will realize it was the death knell of the Corvair and how Ralph Nader got his start![:0]

9) Improved defrost, blower and ventilation (when closed!  I have all the ventilation I need with the top down, thank you very much

10)  A proper place for factory installed stereo speakers.  Hey they came up with a weirdo mono speaker in the dash in a size no other company in the world used, they could have found a place somewhere for stereo speakers...certainly by 1969 or 1970.

11)  Replacable U-Joints on the prop shafts--something that BMW and MB forgot about and why places like Driveline of Portland are in business.

Other then that lady and gents, the car is damn near perfect.  

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Albert-230SL]

About body and style: I would not change anything! I think Paul Bracq did an excellent work, and I love the Pagoda as he designed it, above all with the early two-pieces hub caps.

About technical questions, and considering when it was designed: Mainly the 5th gear. I know it was a factory option (not when my car was made), but it's something I miss in my car if I want to drive it fast on the highway. The 4th gear is very short, and the engine is running at high revs. even at not very high speed... so, with the 5th speed it should be great...
I also think that Béla Barény (safety) and Rudolf Uhlenhaut (chassis) did then an excellent work... Do you remember the "Montreaux show" against a Ferrari 250 GT, and the Böhringer's victory in the Spa-Sofia-Liège?  

Regards,

Albert de la Torre Chavalera
Barcelona (Catalunya/Spain)
Feb.'64 230 SL Euro 113042-10-002432

[Ben]

Yeah Iread the Brooklands Portfolio too but I have to say that I dont find the nose dive a problem at all. Its no big deal 'nor do I have any issue with the swing axles !

However I wish on the right hand drive cars they bothered to swop over the handbrake so its possible to reach !!

Also intermittant wipers would be great, anybody fitted an aftermarket kit ?

Definitely the gear ratio thing is bizzare and an electric overdrive on 3rd and 4th would be great !

Apart from that I wouldn't change anything !

Ohh maybe plastic wheel arch liners would help longevity !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

[George Davis]

These cars were not designed with maintenance and repair in mind.  In fact, it appears they were made deliberately difficult.  You can't remove the brake calipers without disconnecting the brake hoses, I've not encountered that kind of silliness on any other car.  I have sworn and screamed at some point every time I've worked on the car, and there is almost nothing that couldn't be improved if it were possible to do it all over again.  I wouldn't change the shape at all, but I'd change how it's all put together.  Michael Salemi's list is a good start, but too short by far.

Now that I've gotten that off my chest, I suppose all this antiquated (even by the 1960's) stuff is part of the car's charm, and there is some thrill in triumphing over those ancient engineers who endeavored to make it non-repairable.  At this point I'm supposed to say I wouldn't change a thing, but in fact I'd change everything except the looks!

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[Cees Klumper]

Late breaking news (literally) - this afternoon, while driving around 40 MPH in stop-and-go traffic in 88 degree (Fahrenheit, 31 degree Celsius) weather on the highway, I had to make a real emergency stop, tires squeeling big-time (for over a full second which I think is long for tires to squeel at this speed), and after my initial scare I realized that I did not notice any nose dive! I am sure it was there, but it was not bothersome at all.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[mdsalemi]

Well folks, let me reiterate about the Brookings Portfolio, it is an eye opener.

Despite Cees experience today, brake diving was the first thing I noticed "peculiar" about my car, the first 113 I had ever driven.  Clearly from all the 30+ year old test reports it was a noticable issue back then as well.  It is interesting to note that some writers thought that recently developed MB anti-dive technology (clearly it was an issue on their other cars as well) would make it to the 113's but alas it never did.  This is one main reason why John Olsen is making the progressive rate springs and why we are all tinkering, if only in our minds, with springs, sway bars and bushings!

As for swing axles, I hope nobody notices them, as we would only notice them when pushing the edges of the handling envelope--and that's a dangerous position to be in.  Arguably Mercedes took them to the limit, but they were not a highlight of suspension design then and are hopefully non-existent today.  You have to wonder when reading some test reports from the 1960's that pick on the swing axles as to what was going on...I'll tell you what was going on--it was that they were already in the parts bin!!

However despite this and other items in my long litany of redesigns, we were all at one time seduced by this car.  I as a mere child, and it never went away.  The lines, the curves, the clean modern look with throwbacks to the 50's with all the chrome and real wood has suckered us into a habit we'll never, ever really lose.  The artistic design of the car is darn near perfect despite its mechanical oddities and eccentricities. As a complete package we love it.  But we can dream about what if, now, can't we?


Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored