Everything you ever wanted to know about Europe or Members manifestos.

[Flyair]

That is a joke, not a political statement....

Peter,
I feel reassured....

[mdsalemi]

This is what they call the French exception.

Sorry couldn't resist. A cartoon much like this appeared in US publications after the Berlin Disco bombing in 1986 by Libyan terrorists by direction of Khadaffi. For those that don't remember, the USA "retaliation" was US F111 bombing raid on Tripoli; based in England, they were denied fly-over rights from France, necessitating a complex in-air refueling operation, and a lengthy journey. It's all old history now, but I got a good chuckle out of it from whoever the political cartoonist was…interestingly it was apparently Libyan rebels that brought Khadaffi's eventual demise in 2011, not USA or NATO forces and not a divisive bombing raid.

[GGR]

As a matter of fact, Italy and Spain also denied fly-over rights for this operation, and apparently Kadhafi was informed of the attack by the then Prime Minister of Malta as US jet-fighters were violating its air space. Not really a French exception on that one, as basically all the countries on the way had the same position. The attack was then condemned by the United Nations' General Assembly as a violation of its charter and of the International Law. I guess the idea behind not supporting that attack was that two wrongs do not make a right. 

[mdsalemi]

As a matter of fact, Italy and Spain also denied fly-over rights for this operation, and apparently Kadhafi was informed of the attack by the then Prime Minister of Malta as US jet-fighters were violating its air space. Not really a French exception on that one, as basically all the countries on the way had the same position. The attack was then condemned by the United Nations' General Assembly as a violation of its charter and of the International Law. I guess the idea behind not supporting that attack was that two wrongs do not make a right.  

That may be, but in nit-picking detail, Italy and Spain were not really in the way…just France. Whatever.
And, the point of the cartoon is that they didn't seem to have much of a comment in 1944…because it was their @#$ being saved.
(I didn't author the cartoon, I think it was from the NYTimes)

[GGR]

Actually, biggest detour was caused by Spanish denial, not the French one. Besides, US has military bases in Italy, there must be a reason why they didn't take off from there. UN resolution condemning the attack was passed with 79 votes in favor and 28 against. International opposition to this attack was massive, not exactly a detail. Just trying to bring the cartoon into perspective with the reality, that's all.

French are indeed very thankful to the US and all the other allies about the 1944 invasion, no doubt about that. But hey, if that was all about freeing Europe, there should be no surprise when these freed countries acted as such afterwards.

The discussion is about the European construction anyway, not sure these diversions are bringing anything to it.

[mdsalemi]

I beg to differ on  the Spanish diversion; history says otherwise. But forget history--look at a map. France is in the way; Spain would have been a plan B route. France denied flyover rights because they wanted to review the mission. Right or wrong, the US military does not allow any other power to review its missions.
The US didn't take off from Italy, because there is only one USAF base in Italy, Aviano. It holds fighter jets, not bombers. The bombers are in England.
As to the UN resolution, you are correct. But they don't have a stellar track record of fully intelligent decisions.
The US bombing mission in Libya was a failure. Its purpose was to disable the state supported terrorism coming from Libya. The mission failed, and the US didn't pursue it further in such a form directly. Nobody knows this better than the people of Lockerbie, Scotland--additional victims of state sponsored terrorism two short years later.    Some years after that, before his past caught up with him, Qadaffi's Libya paid enormous financial reparations for its part in state-sponsored terrorism. I wonder what the UN had to say about that?
As to the diversions of topic, the cartoon was posted as a long-ago response to one interpretation of the French exception; that itself being one example of the massive complexities of understanding the EU. If you'd like to add 'the Spanish exception" and more, that just validates the complexity suggested. My Austrian friend simplified it for me once. He said that the EU has givers (such as Germany, Austria) and takers (such as Greece) and that's one big root of discontent that will not go away soon. The original video made it clear there's no understanding it, for not only is it massively complex, it's changing all the time!

[GGR]

As to the diversions of topic, the cartoon was posted as a long-ago response to one interpretation of the French exception

Hardly an exception when the position is shared by most of the rest of continental Europe and nations in the world.

Not being able to review the attack mission for which its air space was to be used is indeed the reason why France refused fly-over rights, even though it had been the victim of Libyan sponsored terrorism itself. Also to be noted that all countries of continental Europe where US has air bases refused to be associated to the attack (including Germany), obliging the US to go through the Gibraltar straight and refueling mid-air. Otherwise they would have refueled in one of the continental bases. As per the UK, Thatcher's approval of the use of Royal Air Force was highly criticized in-country, upsetting even the Queen who apparently called the Prime Minister "uncaring".

Europe is indeed complex, and sometimes discouraging. But I remain convinced it is a lesser evil. It's current state is of course not satisfactory at all, as on a political point of view, it is quite inaudible on the international scene. Apart from the risk of returning towards conflicting situations among European countries, one has to look at nowadays world: US is indeed strong, Russia is getting back on its feet and China is a giant which is awakening. Europe has over 400 millions inhabitants and is the richest economic space on the planet.  But it is not able to defend its interests as an entity, and up to the stakes that are involved. Each European country going alone is not going to get any of them very far.

[jameshoward]

A slight correction there, GGR: you say that Europe is not able to defend its interests as an entirety. That's quite wrong. European states - and I do not include my country in that group - choose not to facilitate, co-operate, or do much more than talk about combined operations. Outside of the UK, which still has the third or forth largest defence budget in the world (I forget which), the European states have CHOSEN not to spend money to defend  their interests. The money is there, certainly; the will is not. The big economic hitters in Europe are big economic hitters on the world stage. But perhaps with the exception of France, which is a bit of an odd one in defence terms (it has high ideals and rates itself, but the reality is less clear cut, plus they're contrary buggers; never forget details Gaulle's comment on targeting of their nuclear deterrent (tous azimuts...)), these nations don't really feature in military terms. I speak purely about military capability; their importance as allies and members of NATO remains fundamental and is critical to the enduring peace in Europe and, largely, elsewhere. These are nothing more than my personal views, of course. And burgundy remains the world's foremost wine...

As for much-discussed bombing mission, the reason the jets left from the UK is simply because the US very much needed not to be seen as going it alone on the world stage. The mission could have been launched from any number of fields in northern, central or southern Europe, or indeed the US. The decision to launch from the UK was solely political and never military.

[GGR]

James, I was more talking in political and economic terms rather than militarily, though in the end of course, one needs the military to have his positions heard. And it is certainly more a problem of will than a problem of means. I agree with you that European countries, in their majority, did not spend on the military and have relied on the NATO for their protection. In some ways, it may be a blessing as long as there in no more political unity. Who knows what powerful armies would have ended up doing otherwise. What you and me are saying is not incompatible. I think there should be more political integration, and then more efforts put into a common defense. Doing it in the reverse order may be a bit more worrying. If the military is to remain subordinated to the political, the military will remain as un-integrated as the political level is.   

[GGR]

As we reach the 100th anniversary of the beginning of WWI, here is an interesting article by the German Foreign Minister in "Le Monde":

http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2014/02/04/l-europe-ne-doit-pas-oublier-les-enseignements-de-1914_4360096_3232.html

Particularly interesting parts:

"Au lieu de la loi du plus fort, c'est désormais la force de la loi qui régit les rapports entre les Européens. D'aucuns jugent trop pénible, trop lente et trop lourde la recherche de compromis à la table de négociation commune à Bruxelles. Cette année commémorative nous rappelle quelle avancée de civilisation cela représente lorsque de petits et grands Etats, adversaires hier dans d'innombrables guerres sur notre continent déchiré, recherchent aujourd'hui pendant des nuits entières, de façon paisible et civilisée, des solutions communes.

La perte de confiance dans le projet européen qui est apparue pendant les dernières années de la crise économique européenne, en particulier chez les jeunes qui, dans une grande partie de l'Union, souffrent du chômage et du manque de perspectives d'avenir, renferme de grands dangers. Un tel climat est propice à la renaissance d'accents nationalistes, emballés dans la mélodie facile de la critique européenne. L'Histoire nous commande de nous y opposer résolument.
 
(...) La crise de juillet devait-elle à cette époque inexorablement mener à la catastrophe ? Sûrement pas. Et, pourtant, l'exaltation et la prétendue audace avaient plus de poids à l'époque que la courageuse et laborieuse recherche d'équilibre entre les intérêts en présence. Est-il exclu de voir aujourd'hui se reproduire la même chose ? Cela dépend de nous seuls, les responsables, et des leçons que nous tirons de l'Histoire".

[GGR]

Here is an article on US-EU Relations, following the NSA scandal and the F*** the EU anecdote. Russians are playing it quite well:

http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2014/02/09/les-cinq-lecons-du-****-the-eu-d-une-diplomate-americaine_4363017_3214.html

[Flyair]

GGR
this is what I get while hitting the link

La page demandée n'est malheureusement pas disponible

[66andBlue]

Stan,
take a look at the URL and you'll see "****" in the address. After you added the address in your browser change these 4 stars to the f-word and it should work.
The software here automatically changes all "offensive" words that way.

[66andBlue]

.. Outside of the UK, ... the European states have CHOSEN not to spend money to defend  their interests. ....

Jamie,
why blame them, its nice to have your cake and eat it too? They just play along to let neocons continue their dream of "American exceptionalism". 

[GGR]

Stan,
take a look at the URL and you'll see "****" in the address. After you added the address in your browser change these 4 stars to the f-word and it should work.
The software here automatically changes all "offensive" words that way.

Yes, I tried it and it works.

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Let's not forget that regardless of the perspective, French, American, Polish or any other, we are here on this forum thanks to.... German cars

Very true indeed and is it not funny that this makes us here a truly international car forum having members from so many parts of the world and backgrounds!

While the European Union is still a work in progress as I see it anyway, we all know nothing is perfect (the same goes for our Pagoda's there are a few things they could have done different in 1963 ~ I know wait for it .... yes they [Mercedes] made improvements here and there up until 1971 when production ended for the Pagoda).

..... for my personal point of view may I add that I for one am grateful for the time and energey the Founding Fathers of the EU have devoted to make it a reality. One of the great bennefits and one that I appreciate the most it has kept war out of Europe and for that we have to thank the founding fathers of setting it all into motion. I for one remember well when in 1963 the then German Chancellor Dr. Konrad Adenauer and French President Charles de Gaulle signed the treaty of friendship on behalf of the French and German population. For two nations that till then where great enemies to accomplish such a task was in my young eyes of 26 at that time a great accomplishment. Like our Pagoda the treaty has made it to 50 years and may it continue along those lines. I place great value on piece, having seen the second world war years as a child in cities like Dresden, Magdeburg and Berlin and how much tragedy, missery and hardship it has caused all over the world.

As I said nothing is perfect, however, in time they will get it right. I place great value on the EU if nothing else it does one thing and that is it keeps everyone in check. Touch wood.

That is all I have to say on the subject ... It's not perfect still it's a good thing.

[GGR]

Rolf-Dieter, I think you are a sage and they should have you and people like you talk to the kids in classrooms all over Europe. People of your generation know exactly why the EU does exist. Memory should be kept alive and passed on to the next generations.

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

GGR,

In am just old,  however, young at heart unfortunately the past is impregnated in once memory as if it was yesterday.

I had to remind my own family members from younger generations of course what it was like past 1945 when we were kids. For example, stealing coal from the Russian trucks or shall I say stealing them back from the Russians that took them from us so we could heat our home (my sister 2 1/2 years older then I jumping onto the moving trucks and I collected what she trow on the street). Or going to farmers fields outside the city and collecting corn stumples left from the farmers harvest then taking that to the miller that gave us flours and we took that to the baker that gave us a bread to eat. We were not the only ones people all over the world had to deal with similar circumstances. 

I got angry with my own relatives when they complained they have to pay higher taxes so to support German reunification. How soon they have forgotten in what state Europe was in the 40s and how the Allies have helped Germany back on it's feet. Too many Germans have forgotten all about this. Perhaps I have seen more of this since I was born in the former East Germany and we finally made our way across the border into the former West Germany in 1953. Only if one has experienced hardship and hunger can one appreciate what one has today. I'm forever thankful to the Allies that during WWII have put there lives on the line to liberate ocupied Europe from the Crazy Painters vision of the world.

I watch some of the German Talk Shows on DW (Deutsche Welle) and when they talk about the Euro crisis having given so much money to Greece it makes me angrey to watch when they propose to cut Greece out off the EU all those well educated people have forgotten what there forefathers have done to Greece and other now EU members. In my mind Germany today is prosperous only because the Allies have helped them back onto there feet so it's time to pay back as far as I'm concerned.

Anyway as Colin stated in his opening post ..... Everything you wanted to know about Europe (almost)  I bet there are many a stories and there will be more, as long as we remember the past and never forget .... all will be well.

[GGR]

A manifesto for a political union in the Euro zone, English version

http://pouruneunionpolitiquedeleuro.eu/en/#.UwIcJJrD_IU

[GGR]

An interesting analysis looking among others into the rejection of the European Union and the rise of the far right in Europe (in French):


http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/2014/05/27/la-revanche-des-declasses_4426956_3232.html

[glenn]

Seems the rest of the world are quite content seeing the white folk of the world(less than 10% and declining) killing each other, squabbling among themselves for the last centuries.   They are infiltrating Europe and the US.  Look around your neighborhood - Dearborn, France, London, etc.

[Flyair]

Very interesting remarks that this article presents. As usual, my 2 cts: while Nicolas Bouzou, the author, announces that he would talk about Europe, his exposé is limited to France, Germany, Spain, Austria, Denmark or Portugal. He remains impermeable to the idea that Europe is not 6 or 8 Western European countries and not even the 28 countries that form the EU.

The extreme right movements are also very strong and threatening quite surprisingly in countries such as Norway or Russia, but they were omitted from analysis.

Besides, I was amazed when he quoted Switzerland as a non-european country. I gather that for the author EU means the entire Europe, but if this is so, this would put his knowledge of political geography in line with a certain Sarah Palin or alike...

[glenn]

Good persiflage about Palin.  I assume you mean the 'media's' perception of Palin.  The reality of Palin is 180 opposite of what a lot folks would like to think.........  Obama wrote in his book he wants to change America, i.e. destroy America and its 'white' badness.......and he is doing it.......   

[GGR]

I think the author intends EU when he writes Europe in this article, not its geographical boundaries, which can indeed lead to confusion. He is speaking of the rise of the far right in developed countries. But as you say, other places in the world do witness the same phenomenon. Recent elections in India also show a rise of conservatism there. And of course, all the islamist movements can also be seen as some form of populism / far right. It looks like a great part of the planet is facing the same issue, not only developed countries. The recent economic crisis can explain some of it. But I think there is more to it. I would be interested in reading some analysis about it.

[Peter van Es]

Gentlemen.

I have edited some of the posts below. The reason for this is that we have members from all over the world and some of the content could be considered defamatory, which is against our terms of use (http://www.sl113.org/terms-of-use.html).

Please do not feel that I am limiting your freedom of speech, or consider it personal. I just want me make sure we are inclusive on this world-wide car forum, and not to let politics get in the way of that goal.

Peter