MBCA judging philosophy question.

[Shvegel]

Hi,
I am in the process of restoring my 1970 280SL. Although it is not my plan to create a show car I don't want to do incorrectly something that could easily be done to correct standards. In the course of my research I have noticed a great disparity between one fully restored car and the next in terms of finishes etc.  Rather than debating the fine points between one finish on a bolt or the other what I am looking for is the general guideline.  For example, the recent post of the cars from Brabus show a very pretty rear suspension with yellow cad bolts holding the rear axle halves together as well as the control arms to the axle housing.  However, The "Holy Grail 2" very low mileage SL on the Motoring Investments site shows the complete axle/control arms assembly in all black paint, boot, clamps and all.  The original low mile car would seem to make sense that they would assemble a rear axle etc then just spray the entire assembly.  Another example would be that some people paint the entire underside of the car the exterior body color when it was originally off white undercoat overcoated with rustproofing wax.  Is one or the other incorrect and therefore looked down upon?

My general guide for show cars is that it is done just like the factory only as if they had all the time in the world to do it in or to put it another way factory to the highest level. My question is does this mean exactly the way it rolled out of the factory or if taking more time means the original appearance is changed in some way that this is still OK.

[Jonny B]

You ask some very interesting and difficult questions. The Mercedes Benz Club of America judging standard is, as you type, just the way it rolled off the asembly line. Which may not be up to top concours standards. The 250 SL that was recently restored by Hjeltness Restoration (and was on the cover of the UK MB Classic mag) would be a case in point. They were meticulous in bringing the car to factory level. One item is they recreated the paint runs on the inside of the hood. I try to stay with the standard of the way the factory did it, not with extra time.

The underside of the car would be finished in primer/body schutz, and mostly would not be fully car body color. There would be overspray along the edges, but sort of a greyish/brown for the rest. The big plate under the transmission would be full body color. When I judge for MB I do not take off for that, so yes ther is leeway. The inner fender wells would also be body color, that I do take off for. There is a fair amount about this and the trunk interior finsh etc. on the site. MBCA judging does detract for a paint change, but again, that is dependent on what the participant says, and the level of knowledge of a judge (if they look at the plate, see DB 050 (white) and the car is painted DB 568 (signal red)).

The clamps on my (close) to original car on the rear axel has the clamps in black except for the ones that are holding the brake lines, these would be the 9 mm cotter key style clamps with two small rubber rings (same as the two rubber rings on the hood torsion bar).

None of the clamps on the car are yellow cad, they should be silver. These are available though not in exactly the old style. Again lots on the site about his. And please do not use the "yankee clamps" or the ones with the slots cut clean through the band. I just cringe when I see these on a "high level" restoration.

Some other things depend on the level of the competition. If there are truly exceptional cars that are at the factory specs other cars with replacement parts of different type may get marked down. An example might be the current replacement for the dual brake reservoir above the master cylinder. The replacements are more squared off, and at a slight angle. Some other parts, such as a battery are expected to need replacement, but should be replaced with the proper type (a Varta or similar) versus the green top Interstate or an Optima Gel.

Stainless steel exhaust would be another item, and the judging depends on the knowledge level of the judges. In an a varied marque show, it would probably not be an item, but in a full MB show, it would.

Other items would be the spark plug leads, they should all be straight. Plug wires over the injection lines, or under the injection lines??

Lots of stuff, and some dependent on year, running changes, etc.

Good to chat over a couple of pints of ale!

[W113SL]

When we judge Pagodas or cars of the 60's and 70's for undercarriage, we look for body color there as well as inside the wheel wells..

I realize that many of the cars were sprayed liberally from the factory with the rubberized sound deadener, but is my belief that they then spayed the entire underbody, less the suspension parts, body color.

You will notice a couple of round black coverings that were attached after the body was  to be dipped in some sort of undercoat.  There are pictures in period literature that show this.

The suspension was painted black.  The bolts were usually tightend to the correct torque specs then the torque gun would shoot a yellow dot on the bolt head to indicate that it had been tightend. I have never seen unpanted cad plated bolts on original cars.

To be even more correct, the springs should be color coded to each car, depending on options, like automatic, Air condiitioning etc.  The color codes were  also an indicator of spring specifications as each spring varied a bit. Then a different height spring spacer could be installed to compensate for the correct ride height.

Pete Lesler
W113SL
National Concours Committee Chairman
MBCA
 

[stickandrudderman]

To be even more correct, the springs should be color coded to each car, depending on options, like automatic, Air condiitioning etc.  The color codes were  also an indicator of spring specifications as each spring varied a bit. Then a different height spring spacer could be installed to compensate for the correct ride height.

Interesting. I have posted on here before that new factory springs with the colour markings DO NOT MEET THE FACTORY SPECS! So, how would a judge react to that info?
(Not that I've ever submitted a car to a show, or even been to one myself, just curious).

[Shvegel]

Thanks for the great replies.  I now have a general ides of how to proceed.  Interesting point about preserving the runs on the hood etc.  That sort of shifts my direction a bit. I was always going to save them but never really though about them not being the highest level of the factory painter's art.

Pete, Attached is a picture of a very low mile 1970 SL from Motoring Investments. I have seen at least 3 or 4 more like this as well as the sample from my own underbody at the floorpan which shows no body color.  The second is also a car listed as original from Motoring Investments.  If you look at the transmission support plate you will see it is a Tobacco Brown car.  

I have seen several like this and I think at one time Tom Colitt also posted an unmolested shell showing the same under the heading "Paint Process for Pagodas (for complete nuts only)". I looked for it but can only find an archived version without photos.

Jonny B,  I actually hate American style hose clamps in all applications. I have banned them from the yacht I work on.  

[mdsalemi]

Shvegel,

You have said more than once that "you are not building a show car." To that I say one doesn't necessarily build a show car, but one is created out of simply doing a restoration correctly, and paying attention to the [excrutiating] myriad of details. By dipping the body, something even million dollar restorations don't often get, and painstakingly going to great lengths such as metalizing your plastic parts, you are creating a show car...whether you like it or not! Good for you!

The ridiculous prices of some "original" cars (that gullwing that just sold recently was far more neglected than original) notwithstanding, I don't know when it became something that people shy away from; there is nothing, and should be nothing wrong with doing a correct, proper restoration and being proud of it. You said it twice recently; search in the various threads on chrome plating and you'll find more "I'm not creating a show car" themes.

Document it all with a million photos of each step in your process!

[Shvegel]

Michael,
My biggest fear is that I will be afraid to drive it after it is done. That being said I just bought a set of Bundt wheels on Ebay because the ones I have and have yet to mount tires on are 1/2" too wide to be correct.

[mdsalemi]

My biggest fear is that I will be afraid to drive it after it is done.

Don't be. A car begins to age the moment it is first driven. Rather than say you are "not creating a show car" best to say you don't want a "trailer queen." I didn't start out to create a show car but when all was said (but not all done) it kind of ended up that way. It's first show, BTW was one I did not take it to; in fact, while in the care of Dan Caron (Dr. Benz) HE took it to a MB Club of Canada show. 13,000 miles and more than 10 years later, it's still in pretty good shape. Sometimes the stars align; I remember driving in 2006 to Chicago, in stop and go traffic on I94, in a massive construction zone with tractor trailers towering above me, and miraculously none of the stones kicked up hit me. Then one day, you wash it in your driveway and a piece of grit in the wash water scratches it. Oh well. Yes it will be beautiful, but drive it when you can and do show it if you are so inclined. The amount of changes and guidance I've received to take it from 90% to 95% has been through ever critical discussions with judges, and others with vast amounts of knowledge. Some find that insulting, others a learning experience. (BTW you are never done... )

[Jonny B]

I certainly agree with Michael. I purchased my 250 SL from Pete Lesler (W113SL on the site) and it was built to a high level. Pete was proud to say he never trailered it, and I will say the same thing (knock on wood that it wont ever be on a flatbed!). Is it still at the same level, no; is it still prety darn nice, yes. Can it compete with a trailer queen, no. But that is not what I wanted from the car. It is just a blast to drive, and the thumps up, positive comments, etc, make it all the more pleasant. Mine is coming up on 11 years in my stewardship with around 14000 miles of driving.

These cars are really meant for driving.

[Shvegel]

That's funny.  I was thinking about what Michael said about never being done and what came to mind was meeting Pete for the first time.  He had just sold his red 250SL  and had the dash apart doing some tiny repair on the heater controls before it left his care.  It turns out that he was fixing your car so I guess it really never does end.  It was a memorable trip down there. I had a chance to see what a Pagoda could look like.  I got to see an Original Firestone Phoenix tire and being of small income in those days Pete was kind enough to give me a blower motor for my heater after I messed up the old one trying to take it apart to lubricate it.  It really is a small world.

[zoegrlh]

We all start out thinking, I just want a driver, but as you replace more and more parts on you SL, you realize over years later that "hey, it is looking really nice now".  So let's go another step further.  Now 12 years later, I am still replacing parts to keep my SL to the top of the chain.  Put one thing for sure, I will never trailer to shows.  The fun is to drive it.  A few years ago I joined AACA to show the SL in their show classes, so I took a real hard look at my SL and began to assure myself that the car met AACA standards.  I have people come up to me at AACA shows and ask do you drive it?
Bob