Purchase advice for 1965 230 SL

[peter5992]

Good morning everyone:

I am looking for purchase advice for a non-technical friend of mine who has been bitten by the "classic Mercedes Benz bug" (I think you all know what that means  ). It's partly my fault, I gave her a beautiful two volume book on Mercedes Benz, going all the way back 1899 to about the mid 1990s.

As it happens, I spotted a very nice 1965 SL 230 (parked in the same garage where I park every day). It happens to be for sale. It is factory white with red interior. The front seats have been replaced / stored to original specifications and the engine has been restored by Mercedes Benz. It's been in a few fender benders (doesn't surprise me, people drive pretty terribly around here) but it was professionally repaired. It has been in the same family since 1965, current owner bought it in the early '90s out of an estate after his aunt / uncle died. Current mileage is a little over 104,000. No paperwork from the period 1965 - early 1990s. New radial tires.

The car looks absolutely impeccable in and out (haven't looked under the hood or done any kind technical checks). I noticed it's parked in different spots in the garage, so it's been driven if not daily then at least on a weekly basis. Seller told me that the technical condition is fine. I recommended that my friend have it thoroughly checked out (she has a good mechanic she trusts). My friend is completely non-technical so I told her be sure you know what you're getting yourself into. I also told her that while it's a beauty and technically ahead of the competition back in 1965, it is probably not as comfortable as a modern car, or as powerful, and safety standards are mid 60s, not present day (no head rest). If she's looking for something practical then current generation SL after 2003 is probably a much more practical choice. She has a garage, and a daily driver car (cranky old Volvo but it still runs, and recently passed smog test, so no need to get rid of that immediately). This would be more of a weekend / fun car, to cruise around in the Bay Area, trips to Monterey along Highway 1, and so on. Main thing is that the car has to be reliable, last thing she probably needs is a "project" that needs constant attention.

Ask price is $34,000. Seller told me they want to sell since they have too many cars (their other car is a previous generation E class) and parking is getting too expensive. That sounds reasonable, parking in San Francisco (where I work) is expensive (everything is expensive here, but that is a different story).

I told her that in addition to her own mechanic she might perhaps also consult an MB classic specialist, someone who knows what to look for and what the typical trouble areas are, where rust might form, etc. Does anybody have any recommendations in that regard? This is the San Francisco Bay Area. I've searched around this forum and the Mercedes-Benz forum, I've seen a couple of shops being recommended, not sure whether those shops are just generally delivering good service or whether they are also technically specialized. I know that Mercedez Benz has a corporate policy of supporting its older models and you can order original parts for models that are long out of production, but I'm not sure what specific expertise to expect at the official dealership. Could be that the mechanics there are highly trained to service current models, but not so much when it comes to classics. First thing I did was try to pull up a Carfax report but those are only available for cars 1981 and later as you probably all know. 

Anything I am overlooking something? Any other thoughts / suggestions?

Thanks!

Peter

ps before I moved to America I used to have a 1989 W126, wonderful car, recommended to me by an old friend who was totally "into" this model (and the W123). I learned the value of having expert advice, you can't be too careful.

[KevinC]

Peter,

Its very nice that you are trying to assist. At this price the car certainly SEEMS worth the effort. Believe it or not, there ARE cars out there that haven't been in a few fender-benders. I would suggest using this as a negotiating tool.  No matter how professionally re-built, its not the same as "original" from the factory.

I would follow your gut and look under the hood and have all of the technical checks done. I myself have seen many cars that look great on the surface and are a train-wreck under the skin. I personally wouldn't go to an MB dealer as much as someone who specializes in working on these classics. My 230SL had been serviced at Alpina in the Napa area who seemed to do a great job. There are others of course also. When you contact them to inquire about their work, ask specifically about their recent experience with W113's.

Feel free to post photos here if you have them and I am certain you'll receive some constructive feedback.

Kevin


Kevin 

[Oisin]

Hi Peter, http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Buying/Start.  Get a good mechanic to check it out (Recommendations any San Francisco Bay Area folk out there?). But in more general terms it is a great car.  Just to allay some of the concerns you raised,

It was designed to lead it's class in safety design.  That said, it was the class of 1963.  
It is comfortable - the seats are well sprung and the suspension is on the soft side.
It is more capable of keeping up with modern traffic and breaking the law if you want.
They are strong cars and if this example has been well maintained then reliability shouldn't be a problem.  Mine hasn't had an issue in the 8 years I've had it.   Get electronic ignition installed if is not already there.  Simple job, big difference.

I would just mention the obvious.  It is 50 years old and if your friend is particularly risk averse then ....

All the best


 

[peter5992]

Excellent feedback! Many thanks. I took a few pictures this morning, I'll upload those later today. The pictures won't tell you what's under the hood obviously, but it's a start.

On accidents and fixing damage, my own former W126 was in a hailstorm (with me in it), in Switzerland. Hail bullets as big as oranges, frightening (I was on the shoulder, cowering under the dash). Several people were killed that day, I saw little Peugeots that were completely annihilated. My Benz had big dents, some near fist sized, but no windows broken, and it still ran as if nothing had happened. It was insured, technically it was a total since the cost of repair was slightly over the appraised value, but the repair shop negotiated a deal with the insurance company to get it done at a slight discount. The guy that runs the repair job told me that even if you would take a baseball bat and would bash it into the body with full force, you wouldn't be able to get dents that big (especially in the steel over the front fenders, that go around the hood).Took them months, they took it completely apart. Afterwards it looked better than new. Nowadays it is still running strong, literally indestructible.

So I'm personally not so freaked out about minor accidents, as long as it didn't affect structural integrity and the repair was done professionally. It may be a valuation issue, but we're not there yet, first thing is making sure that the car is structurally sound, well maintained, with no hidden dramas. My friend is primarily looking for a beautiful old Benz to enjoy, not as an investment or to take it to Pebble Beach or anything.

[peter5992]

Pictures:

[Jonny B]

So hard to tell from photos, but the white is such a classy/classic color for these cars. One of the fender benders must have involved the rear. The taillights should be all red. Fixable but expensive. Hopefully not an indicator of other kinds of details that have been missed.

[peter5992]

Thanks for the feedback Johnny. The headlights and front bumper seem to suggest that this may be a European rather than a US car which I don't quite understand since I thought it had been in the US since its "birth", but perhaps the original owners picked it up in Stuttgart and brought it back to the US. The front end was also in a fender bender (truck backing up) back in the 90s, could be that the front was restored with a European style grille. Regardless they did an excellent job, everything looks spotless, at least on the outside.

I've been doing more homework, including reading the "Prepurchase Evaluation of the W113 230SL, 250SL and 280SL" which is extremely thorough. I can do a lot of the 'sanity checks' like verifying VIN numbers, checking numbers on engine blocks, checking for rust, but in the end my friend and I feel strongly that this is the time to bring in an expert and pay some money to do a thorough checkup of everything in the prepurchase manual, and then some.

Do you or does anyone have any recommendation for qualified mechanics or shops in the SF Bay Area? My friend's Volvo mechanic feels out of his league with a vintage car of this kind, he also recommended that we consult a specialist.

I found this list:

http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Suppliers/Start

Has anyone done business with Tom Colitt?

ClassicAutosLA   USA - 2132 Hyde Park Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90047   tcolt@netzero.com   323 251-0987       Tom Colitt   Specializing in Pagodas & W111 etc: From award winning concours restorations to simple service or advice   USA   California

They are in LA but if there are no shops in the Bay Area we could fly them in. There's also the Mercedes Classic Center, but I wonder if they want to get involved with a car unless they can sell it themselves.

[Jonny B]

Tom Colitt is top notch when it comes to Pagoda archeology. He did a presentation at the Blacklick event some years back showing the work he did on checking and prepping a Pagoda. Very thorough. Some other site members may know a person in the Bay area that does this kind of work, I do not.

[KevinC]

Peter,

The car seems very nice on the exterior. Photos under the hood, of a bare truck floor and of the undercarriage (up on a lift) would tell us a lot more. The headlights on this car are US version. As Johnny stated, 230SL's did not have amber turn signals from the factory which suggests that these are newer MB replacements. There is typically no need to change these unless there has been some rear-end damage.

IMHO, reviewing the paint and interior of these cars is only about 1/3 of your "due diligence"; mechanics must be checked and a thorough check for rust should be done which an expert can do for you (they will know where to look). The Classic Center doesn't do pre-purchase evaluations for others, its just not what they do. I would try Tom Colitt before anyone else. He's a member of this group and you should be able to send him a personal message via his profile...

http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=27

Also, have you tried calling....

http://seitzeuro.com/

http://www.alpinacarcenter.com/

Lastly...

Read this thoroughly http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Buying/PrepurchaseEvaluation
    

[kampala]

Has anyone done business with Tom Colitt?

I have worked directly with Tom Colitt.  He knows these cars inside out ... literally.  You may find someone closer ... but if you don't ... you won't go wrong with Tom.  

best

[peter5992]

Excellent advice, greatly appreciated!

Yes, I fully agree, the exterior visual inspection is only the first start. The pre-purchase analysis has to be done thoroughly, and by an experienced mechanic. I'll talk to my friend and we'll decide on a strategy. Henry Seitz seems a very competent and experienced mechanic as well, and he is much closer to SF (Santa Rosa is about an hour north from SF, along Highway 1), logistically it would make things much easier rather than flying in an expert from LA.

Another question: I think that the pre-purchase analysis is a critical stage where you have to bring in the experts, but what about regular maintenance? My friend is largely to completely non-technical and fully relies on her mechanic to keep her cranky old Volvo running. I know that the Pagoda is completely mechanical, is this is a car you can take to any decent mechanic, or does it have to a specialist who may be able to spot issues that may be more susceptible to wear and tear? I'm feeling a bit responsible here in trying to "lay out the land" for her, if the car needs a little extra attention, that's fine but I want her to be aware of what she's getting into and I want the ownership experience to be as pleasant and enjoyable as possible, with preferably no surprises.

Thanks!

[georgem]

Peter,

I think your last post has hit the crux of the issue. Our cars are 50 years old. Things go wrong- not major things as  they are robust but little things that most of us owners take for granted and fix our selves (although I`m struggling for an example) but they are regular. My worry would be that everytime some minor problem arose it would mean a trip (read $$s) to a sympathetic mechanic if there is one close who could take the door trim off to play with the window winder mechanism, or adjust the door on the glove box or replace a fuse etc etc etc. They need checking regularly - between services for tell tale signs -   coolant weeping from an old hose if spotted and the hose replaced could save a major failure later- more etc etc etcs.
Part of the reason this site is so popular and supported is because owners want/need to be involved in the maintenance of their own cars. To the uninitiated, the Technical Manual has a frightening amount of information on things that can go wrong with our cars (and luckily how to fix them) - its there partly because there are so few Pagoda sympathetic mechanics out there and partly because thats one of the joys of owning and maintaining the car.

I think your friend would soon tire of this and sell it, bemoaning the fact that Pagodas are so expensive to own.

Cheers

[KevinC]

I whole-heartedly agree with George. Interestingly, I personally am not mechanically inclined (I do listen and watch for potential issues, however) so what I do is have a local Euro-car shop work on the plaguing issues and then a secondary but trustworthy mechanic handle issues like shock absorber installations, fuel-pump swaps and the like.

You don't HAVE TO work on these cars yourself...but it sure helps!

[peter5992]

Good common sense feedback! And one more reason to take a good hard look at the car before purchasing. My advice would be this:

1. First and foremost, make sure the car is fundamentally sound and that any repairs were done professionally, w/o corners cut.
2. Next up, if some parts are not completely authentic or original (e.g. the seats and rear lights), that is an issue that might affect resaleability to a collector or afficionado and thus value but it wouldn't be a deal killer for me personally (not sure how my friend would feel about this).
3. If anything isn't 100% technically, get an estimate for the repair cost and that should be a negotiating issue.
4. If it all works out technically and financially, get whatever needs to be done, done immediately by a qualified specialist.

My friend has some financial resources so spending a bit of money for a qualified mechanic isn't a deal killer; neither is having to spend a little attention to maintenance, as long as the car is fundamentally sound. The whole point here is to enjoy cruising around in a beautiful car.

Last I heard she was going to contact the mechanic in Santa Rosa and the owners and take it from there.

[KevinC]

One slight addition...on the prospect of what's been changed, its not just whether or not its been done with OEM parts as much as why was the replacement required in the first place? I would bet (for instance) on the subject of the tail lights most here would agree that the change was more likely done as the result of an accident as opposed to an owner simply preferring amber over red.

I don't mean to sound at all negative...just passing along some experiences that helped me along the way.  This could be an awesome car but you are better to be skeptical in the beginning and be pleasantly surprised as opposed to being less cautious and later disappointed. 

[Kleine]

Peter,

You asked about marque specialists in the Bay Area that are knowledgeable about 230, 250, 280SLs.  You might want to contact Jurgen Klockemann ( 408-985-8722 ) in San Jose or Rene at Burlingame Motors, 650-343-8858.  Jurgen has restored many Mercedes to concours level and knows 230SLs.  Jurgen helped me restore by 1966 230SL.  Burlingame Motors restores old Mercedes and does excellent mechanical work.  I'm pretty sure either will gladly do a pre-purchase inspection for your friend. 

Joe

[peter5992]

Love your feedback, once again an excellent forum! 

@Kevin: it's been in 3 minor accidents, front end, rear end, right side. See details below. Again, this might deter a collector but my friend is not that, I'm just trying to make sure that it was professionally repaired and that the car is mechanically sound.

She contacted the owner by e-mail, by the way, for a test ride. That will be interesting.

This is what the owner sent me (I am redacting out the name of the late aunt and uncle for privacy reasons):

"1965 230SL

Factory White with Red Interior with White “Pagoda” Hard Top; Black Convertible top
104,127 miles total
24,365 miles on completely rebuilt engine (restored by Mercedes Benz)
7,785 miles on (then) new Michelin Radial X tires
New front seats installed Jan. 21, 2000 (to original design)
New convertible top; new rear window

Overall
Complete car with matching pagoda roof
Completely rebuilt engine by Mercedes
New Paint by Mercedes
New Convertible top
New Front Seats done to original design
Replaced brake master, booster and brakes
No air conditioner

History
1965-1992 Owned by *** (aunt and uncle); do not have records
September 1992 - purchased from the estate with 67,217 miles
January 1993 – Replace brake booster at 67,976
June 1995 – Major brake service, replace brake master at 73,698 miles
August 1995 –front and rear shocks replaced at 74,778 miles
December 1998 - completely rebuilt engine at 79,762 miles
1999 – new convertible top
January 2000 – new front seats
June 1999 – truck backed into front end; new front grill and paint
August 1999 – total new paint job by Mercedes Benz
August 1999 – then hit in rear end; repair and another total new paint job
June 2004 – hit on right side; replace, repair and repaint
August 2008 – new Michelin radial tires"

[peter5992]

My friend went for a test ride today (I was not there), and from what she wrote me, she really likes the car.

"The car drives well and is very pretty. I drove it on 280 and city streets; it was fine. It's funny the things you like about a car---the big steering wheel and how that looks (pretty white to match the car's color) and feels, the smell of the leather in the car (almost like a men's cologne), and the feeling of going back in time."

I think that love is in the air. 

The next step is that she is going to contact a qualified and experienced mechanic to give the car a thorough review. She has the contacts that you guys posted on this forum; she'll take it from there. Keep you posted.