Re: vehicle restoration costs

[Greg]

I have another question which might suit this forum. I always wonder how much does a full restoration at Mercedes Classic factory costs? or at some other pagoda genius? Someone might have done it! I mean when car becomes brand new as it has left the factory. Cannot cost more than buying a good example newly restored one instead. or?

[Bonnyboy]

The answers will vary based on who you ask.  Get it in writing.  Its typical to expect to pay for parts and then labour but not generally labour ontop of prices that already include labour.   Check the breakdown of the work - labour rates vary depending on who is doing the work.  I would personally want to spend a bit more on the painter than the monkey changing the tires.  Having employees sit down trying how to figure out how to get the whatzamcallit out of the thingamabob without damaging the flux capacitor is all billable and can add up especially if you have 4-5 guys thinking about the problem at the same time.  Think about it from the point of view if you were the shop owner.  You are paying your guys to make money for the business.  If they are not charging, the business is loosing money.  You can see how expensive it can get.    I also know of shop owners who were trying to compete and were bidding on "by the job" and ended up loosing money due to unforseen issues.  

My buddy is a bodyshop estimator and he says that most work is based on the book and the estimated hours to complete something but that a good employee will make the company money but a poor employee will loose money hand over fist.  I know several guys who had a shop owner work on their vintage car in the off hours when they have no cars to work on and sometimes that is even worse becasue of all the time it takes to get set up to start working on it.  


My friend's wife's car wouldn't start last week.  She was being independent so had car towed to local shop by herself (the one that offers free cappuchinos) .  My buddy just about had a heart attack when she brought back the bill.   $500 for a battery.

Tow to repair shop just incase there was a bigger problem that driving the car would have made worse???
45 minutes of diagnostic time
battery purchase
battery delivery charge
replaced battery lead
labour to install
re diagniosis to make sure battery was the problem and that electronics were all working again


My buddy told his wife that the next time the car needed some work that he would do it and charge her only 1/2 what the shop would charge.  Apparently his wife said that was fine but that she was going to start charging him for sex, if it ever happened again.  

 

[badali]

A local shop in Harmony Pa told me a 113 will typically be about 140K to restore nut and bolt factory perfect.  They do 300 SLs also and one of them will be about 500K- a million to restore.  The 300 SL roadster they finished was as perfect as can be as far as I could tell looking at it.  I'm sure other shops will vary quite a bit.  Here is a link to their rate page.

http://www.hahnandwoodward.com/ratesandpolicy.htm

[RonB]

I don't know if this helps - I just finished a full paint. I delivered my 280 on a rolling chassis. Complete stripped.

The shop stripped the car to bare metal - found a dollar size rust spot, filled the side marker lights. Replaced the headlight bucket.

Primed and ready for paint @ 14k

Total base paint and 4 coats of clear cost 5.5k. Now I have to put it back to together.

I did the interior, carpet and engine a little while back. It will receive a new top.

The shop was a Son and Father. Rate was $65.00 per hour for all the prep work.

[Shvegel]

Usually a full restoration will cost more than what you can buy a restored car for.  I used to restore cars back when and the first question was always do you love the car or do you love THIS car.  If you love the car go out and buy a better one. If you love this car you are screwed. 

[stickandrudderman]

I advise customers to expect around 100K sterling. It may be more, it may be less but there's no way of knowing until you start and once you start you are committed.
I've yet to find the customer who wants the ultimate "better than new" car but he would have to be expecting to spend even more than 100K for a car where every single nut, bolt, screw,washer etc. is like new. Those little details can really rack the price up.

[bsimaz]

A local shop in Harmony Pa told me a 113 will typically be about 140K to restore nut and bolt factory perfect.  They do 300 SLs also and one of them will be about 500K- a million to restore.  The 300 SL roadster they finished was as perfect as can be as far as I could tell looking at it.  I'm sure other shops will vary quite a bit.  Here is a link to their rate page.

http://www.hahnandwoodward.com/ratesandpolicy.htm

why would it cost so much more for a 300SL?  Would the shop charge more per hour just because they are working on it, as opposed to working on a 113?
i.e.   300SL - $150/hr  vs.  230SL - $85/hr....

Except for the cost of replacement parts, seems like the effort  would be the same.
Just wondering....

[stickandrudderman]

Market forces at work!

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Simple note to the OP.

Think of supply and demand or location location ... And the answer will come to you, anything that involves "quality and class"  will cost money, always have and always will.

As others have pointed out, the final cost (and it will always be different) is never the same, it all depends on the car condition before work stars. Even then it can only be an estimated cost since one never knows what one finds as the car is disassembled for the work at hand.

Your best bet always is as someone said many a times "Purchase the best you can afford the go from there"

Also remember this "The cost is long forgotten while you still enjoy the Quality for ever" 

[Jonny B]

I am not telling anything out of school, as the car has been featured (along with cost) in a number of national mags. Local person, original owner 250 SL, restored by Hjeltness Restoration (think Pebble Beach 300 SL roadsters/gullwings) was right near $300,000 US. It is just beautiful, as it dang well should be.

[W113SL]

Jonny B;  I judt wrote an artilce for the Star featuring this car.  Readers take a look to see what money can buy,  Remember, this was a clean rust free never hit Southern California car before restoration began,

Pete Lesler

[Cees Klumper]

...this was a clean rust free never hit Southern California car before restoration began,
Pete Lesler

Seems to me the owner wasted about $275,000 then, because if the basis was that good, making it as good as new will not have added very much to the resale value. Plus he can't drive it now or even the $25,000 premium will begin to dissepate over a relatively short time.

[Flyair]

Pete,
any chance for posting the article for the benefit of the rest of us - non US members? In the past there was no problem to doing that provided that the source was mentioned...

[mdsalemi]

Seems to me the owner wasted about $275,000 then, because if the basis was that good, making it as good as new will not have added very much to the resale value.

There you go again, Cees, thinking like an accountant. If everyone who restored cars did it only with resale in mind, few cars would be restored; the barns would be full. Sometimes there are emotional and non-financial reasons to restore a car…thank goodness!  

But really, in reference to Stick, Dieter and more: sometimes you need to be, if you have a budget (clearly the owner of this magnificent 250SL didn't have or care about a budget) very intelligent about how and where you get cars restored. In my case for example, I looked around the USA. One well known restorer, (which was NOT Hjeltness, but could very well have been) provided a plethora of documentation on a 280SL that he did restore, so I could review it. (some of you have heard this before). He charged about $85 an hour at that time for labor, which also included a lot of his research and documentation. In this I saw a full page description of what was done to restore the starter motor, almost as if at every step of the way, the mechanic stopped to write down what and how he was doing things. The end result was a restored starter motor with something like 4.5 hours of labor plus parts. I did the math and it was nearly $400 to restore the starter. At that time, you could take the old starter to nearly any foreign auto parts store, swap it for a factory rebuilt, Bosch boxed, Bosch starter for about $125.00, or simply take it to an auto electric place and have it rebuilt for $85. I decided that this was exactly how some bills could be run up excessively, and this restorer was not for me. Every restorer has their own means of working. I didn't want or need a descriptive page on the starter, I just needed a rebuilt one. Similarly on my brakes, I merely took them to a local foreign auto parts store, (a box of four nasty, rusty old calipers) and for $40 each they came back rebuilt and also looking brand spanking new and have been on and in the car behaving flawless since that time.

There are ways to manage the costs of a restoration without cutting corners. I don't think I cut any corners by installing a factory rebuilt Bosch starter, or by using the local place for a brake rebuild…but I do think it was a financially prudent course of action.

[stickandrudderman]

Which is exactly why I don't like to quote customers in advance. Customers simply cannot know in advance how many variables there are and what they are going cost.

[mdsalemi]

I was never quoted anything on my restoration. I was informed of the labor rate, and how they bill things. We agree on my participation; it worked out exceedingly well with never a disagreement or misunderstanding. Thus in many cases the restorer simply boxed up the parts for me (a box of brakes, a box of gauges/instruments, a box of interior chrome, etc.) and I took that away and took care of it. Some restorers would never do that; mine invited it because he felt comfortable not only that I was going to take care of it, but then it was "stuff" he didn't have to do. He spent the time on body work and paint. He was much happier reaching into a box of new, shiny chrome, or rebuilt brakes and instruments rather than dealing with the vendor.

I don't know how any restorer could possibly ever quote anything except an hourly rate; as Stick says there are just too many uncertainties.

[Cees Klumper]

Sorry to think like an accountant Michael!    Some of us have to I guess, after all the restorers also have to be able to count pretty good to stay in business and earn their living, and some quite a good living I suppose.

I guess it goes back to the same thinking explored in the other thread, about whether one should buy their modern cars new or used. As I was doing my 200 or so mile trek from Geneva to Guyonvelle in the 2003 Volvo S80 last night, I again did the math and concluded that buying that car new would have cost me about 8 times more per year than buying it used (8 years old) but with very low miles. I'm just very glad many people buy their cars new, so I can have that financial windfall. If I were buying another Pagoda, that's what I would do: get one that was restored fully, at maybe half or a third of what that restoration cost. Doesn't seem fair, and I do applaud all those who do the "cost be damned" all-out restorations. If I were really wealthy, I might do the same thing.

And everything is relative, as on the El Camino site I also frequent, any part over say $250 is viewed as suspiciouly expensive, and full restorations exceeding $10,000 are quite rare; people make do with less, do lots themselves and the results are often quite nice.

[mdsalemi]

full restorations exceeding $10,000 are quite rare

Do I need to tell you that Michigan is littered with partially finished, or partially started restorations of all kinds, on cars (there's the accountancy again) rarely worth restoring. We're not the only ones with the disease, but being the land of American iron, and with so many tied to the auto industry, the hot rod projects, restoration projects etc. are all over the place. There's many a good deal deal here. I can't tell you how many times you'll find "Over $X.XX invested, will sacrifice for $Y.YY" Sadly though, the cars "of a certain value" (like an old Porsche or something) won't be had for a song. Neither will a Pagoda.

Here's something to explore Cees--from an accountant's standpoint. We know buying a used car of certain vintage makes financial sense. Does selling it too, at some point (as opposed to driving it to dust) make sense? How does one being to figure that out?

[Cees Klumper]

Hi Michael - in fact, I figured that part out as well. Apologies for taking this thread off-topic for a bit.

Barring technological breakthroughs and developments, that can render a car technically obsolete (as our Pagodas actually are, mostly due to safety and fuel consumption advances on later cars), my modern Volvos from an economical standpoint should be kept until such time as technical obsolescence sets in. This could be another twenty years. Best never to sell in the meantime, but keep investing in the smaller and larger maintenance it requires. I figured (again, in my head while driving last night) the engine and transmission are the main investments to be made every couple hundred thousand miles. Everything else is minor stuff: brakes, struts and shocks, etc. The total cost of maintenance including that occasional engine or trans overhaul, on a yearly basis, comes down to peanuts when compared to the lease or buy cost of a new car of equal class. So my advice: buy a reliable (dare I say Toyota?) car that's about 8 or so years old, very low miles, very well maintained (they are a dime a dozen) and keep driving it and maintaining it until technical advances render it obsolete, then move on to that newer technical generation. Besides the enormous savings on depreciation over a new car, don't forget the equally sizeable savings on interest, given the far lower average investment amount, and the insurance: really no need for comprehensive coverage on a car that you can replace if lost for say $5,000.
In my opinion, we've not seen really much advancement in the last 15 or so years. My two Volvos (from 2002 and 2003 respectively) have air bags all around, are very fuel-efficient, have ABS and many other active safety controls and also have all the comforts of today's cars (and fortunately lack the kinds of features that have me acidentally calling help desks when I touch a wrong button in a modern rental Honda or Buick whenever I'm in the States). And, big point: they don't rust. So I do plan to keep them for at least another 10-15 years.

Back on topic!

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

I was often confronted with the question in my professional life "how much will it cost" this was not on cars it was on large rotating machinery!

I always told my customers that it is not possible to predict a cost since we never know what we find once the machine is taken apart. Repair or replacement of defective parts etc. I only quoted estimated hours for disassembly, inspection (UT and NDT work etc.) and reassembly plus recommissioning of the machinery. Anything else would be dealt with on a day to day basis as we found problems. Mind you my projects were one to two million dollar major inspections of a driver and driven, still it was machinery parts running on very close clearances and tolerances.

It is very much the same for cars, there are certain things a repair shop can estimate and provide cost for it is the unknown that cannot be predicted or estimated unless a compression test points to the obvious etc. Some people don't seam to quite understand.