How many bows in your soft top?

[jpinet]

Hi! I just purchased an new soft top from Auto Berry and when it came time to install it, I noticed there was fabric for only 3 cross bows. My car has 4 cross bows. David at Auto Berry tells me some W113 came with 4 bows and that I should have told him I had 4 before I purchased the top. Can anyone tell me if that it is correct? Some cars would have come with 4 bows, while most had 3? My 230SL is a 1965, so not one of the first one that came out the assembly line. I would think that by that time, MB would have standardized the number of bows. David at Auto Berry was not very nice about this, basically stopping short of saying I was stupid for not noticing that.

[Flim]

Do you perhaps have an earlier 230SL aluminium softop frame? I am unaware of the specifics, but believe the change from aluminium to steel frame happened somewhere around November 1964 (assembly). Is your car perhaps a late 1964 assembly and registered as a 1965?

Could be that the earlier aluminium frames had 3 bows? Does anyone know if this is the case?

Charles

[Garry]

My car is a 1965 production number 12948 and it has three bows.

Charles may be right and you have a 1964 production car?

Garry

[jpinet]

Charles and Garry,

Thanks for your input. My prod # is 09086, so very early in Jan. 1965. They manufactured about 20 cars a day, so this is like the 3rd of Jan. Maybe New Year's party hangover and they added a 4th bow to my top? I am really trying to determine if any other W113 had 4 bows, while most had 3 bows everywhere else and curious to know if anyone out there has a 4 bow soft top.

[hkollan]

Charles and Garry,
 I am really trying to determine if any other W113 had 4 bows, while most had 3 bows everywhere else and curious to know if anyone out there has a 4 bow soft top.

All the 280 SLs I know of have softtop frames with 4 bows, including early and late production 280's. So I am pretty sure they all had 4 bows.

Hans

[66andBlue]

My car is a 1965 production number 12948 and it has three bows.

Garry, Hans & "jpinet",
what do you count as a "bow"??

[hkollan]

Alfred,

I counted the "bows"  that are to be wrapped/glued by fabric "flaps" sewn on the inside of the softtop,
since, as I understood it,  that was the issue of the OP. I counted #2,#3 and #4 in your illustration plus the bow/bar
In front of #2 that is not directly attached to the frame itself just fixed to the strap bands.

Hans

[Garry]

I didn’t count the forward attachment rib nor the rear attachment rib as I considered a bow as one item that assisted in keeping the canvas top spread (2,3 and 4) but not part of the lock down mechanism. if you include them then there is 1 and 5?

[66andBlue]

... David at Auto Berry tells me some W113 came with 4 bows and that I should have told him I had 4 before I purchased the top. Can anyone tell me if that it is correct? ...

Looks like you have a good basis for a serious discussion with your supplier. Which one of the cross-members did he think can be eliminated? Now you know that all soft tops are the same in this respect.

[mbzse]

.../...the bow/bar in front of #2 that is not directly attached to the frame itself just fixed to the strap bands

The purpose of this bar is to dampen vibrations in the soft top fabric that (may) occur when car is travelling at speed. It can be, that this bar was not there on the soft top of early 230SL cars. It is not a separate part (with its own part No). What is given in the M-B factory literature are a sequential series of part No's that apply for the entire frame only
/Hans in Sweden
.

[Flim]

jpinet

I have attached a picture of my early 250SL soft-top showing what I interpret to be 4 bows (the horizontal elements covered by fabric, in my definition), all covered by fabric. Picture taken a few years back when I was re-gluing the loosened fabric.

Does this help identify the type of frame you have fitted?

I also assume that you would like to know whether anyone else has a 'bow' uncovered by fabric?

Garry is your frame an early aluminium type?

Charles

[66andBlue]

Hans (in Sweden),
you make a very good point about the function this bar. My 280SL was originally ordered in Florida without a soft top (but with the soft top compartment). The second owner then had a used top installed but when I bought it from he third owner - a member here - that bar was gone. Fortunately it is very easy to make one, but perhaps there are more tops out there with a lost or forgotten dampening bar.

[jpinet]

jpinet

I have attached a picture of my early 250SL soft-top showing what I interpret to be 4 bows (the horizontal elements covered by fabric, in my definition), all covered by fabric. Picture taken a few years back when I was re-gluing the loosened fabric.

Does this help identify the type of frame you have fitted?

I also assume that you would like to know whether anyone else has a 'bow' uncovered by fabric?

Garry is your frame an early aluminium type?

Charles

Hello Charles,

yes, that is correct. I'm looking to see if other 230SL have a bow uncovered by fabric. In my case, it's the one in the front, just before the windshield header. I'm told it makes no difference, besides esthetics, but I'm sure MB did put it there for a reason. I could always glue fabric to my top and cover the bar, but my supplier is saying I should have told him. I had assumed that all 230SL had 4 bows that were covered by fabric. He says it's exceptional.

[Flim]

jpinet

I would be surprised if other 230SL had a bow uncovered by fabric, irrespective of whether they had 3 or 4 bows…….

The felt fabric covering the bows are indeed functional, and not just aesthetic as your supplier states. They are actually stitched through the soft top and helps keep the soft top taught against the frame. In the picture below, you can see where the felt fabric has been stitched through the soft top along the corresponding bows.

I would think that the bow behind the windshield header is particularly important as if this bow is the vibration damping bow, as Hans (in Sweden) states, and that a top not taught along this point would resonate quite considerably at speed…..

Charles

[66andBlue]

...  He says it's exceptional. ...

He is wrong, don't accept it and let him do it right.

[Garry]

Charles is right and the “bow” back from the from windscreen is not a bow but a vibration dampener and is not attached to the hood mechanism but a steel bar sown into the hood .  Here are the photos from the inside of my car.

There definately should not be any bare hood bows and the forward bar is not ‘exceptional’ but was part of the design.

Garry

[jpinet]

Hi all,

thanks very much for all the info and the photos. My car's in the shop this w-e for the top and I'll take pict. this Monday. I bought this top from Auto Berry, and as I said, David the manager, was really condescending when I called. ''Your upholsterer should have known. He can't be good. I've been in this business all my life and never heard of someone installing a top without first checking.'' and so on. His tone was most unpleasant. And I was not calling to complain but to inquire.
I know that he is not going to take this top back. Do you think I can glue a length of fabric to the inside of my top to cover my bar?

The other issue I have is that when I measure the 'curtain', the back part where the window is, it is 1 inch shorter than my original top and impossible to close. I understand it needs stretching, but that much? I've read of people heating their tops and even of someone making a stretching rack! Sound like a torture device form the middle ages!
Can anyone tell me that this is normal and that I do need to work quite a bit on the top to stretch it? It's made of German canvas.

Thanks again all for your help!

[Garry]

Can you give us a photo of the metal bar you are talking about?

When a new hood is fitted it should be quite taut but should be able to be closed.  My upholsterer suggested that I left my new top, from Buds Benz, up for a few weeks to initially stretch it. Everyone has their prefered method/sequence for closing and locking their soft top.  In my case I latch the front first without fully locking them, then close the rear down with considerable force (almost a slam) to get it to latch. If I try the other way it is a struggle to get the latches in to the front holes, at the same time scratching the chrome in the process.  In reverts, lowering it I ease off the front latches without actually totally unlocking them before releasing the rear.

Garry

[jpinet]

Garry,

the bow I'm talking about is the one not attached to the frame but to the canvas straps. This is where I do not have fabric to attach to this bar. See photo.

Am I right to think that all 250SL and 280SL had this bar but some and not all 230 had it?

If that's the case, I still think that Auto Berry should let their customers know about this exception, just as others do for the way some cars have a large fabric piece on the inside quarter panels while others have short ones.

[66andBlue]

The picture of the folding top in my reply #5 is from the Spare Parts Catalog Edition A -July 1963.
This should be enough evidence that this bar was present in ALL folding tops.

[Garry]

Jpinet

As Alfred said it is on all tops, 230 thru to 280’s and should be encased in the lining fabric. To not do so or suggest that it is something different is just plain wrong.

Without it your hood may be noisy and also potentially get a drumming in it at highway speed.

I would be digging in and insisting they do it properly and if they have questions refer them to Tom Hansen at MB Classic Centre CA who would no doubt clarify their misconception.

Garry

[jpinet]

Guys,

you've convinced me that David at Auto Berry is wrong. I will get in touch with Tom at MB Classic Centre and see if he's willing to write me a note about this so I can have proof.

But honestly, that David was such a xxx, that I feel I'm going to have a hard time with him. And it upsets me that given the so short summer here in Quebec, my car will be without a top for a good while. I'm not a happy guy right now.

[Jordan]

jpinet, if you go to Auto Berry's web site and look at the photos for the W113 canvas soft top you will see in the first photo that they show all 4 canvas coverings for the cross members (bows).  Tell David to have a look at his own web site, that should convince him that he needs to make this right.

[jpinet]

jpinet, if you go to Auto Berry's web site and look at the photos for the W113 canvas soft top you will see in the first photo that they show all 4 canvas coverings for the cross members (bows).  Tell David to have a look at his own web site, that should convince him that he needs to make this right.

Jordan,
I know, but his argument is that 230SL's exceptionally had this bar. I think he's full of it. I wrote to the MB Classic Center to have an 'official' opinion about this.