Author Topic: Headers  (Read 8221 times)

hauser

  • Guest
Headers
« on: July 03, 2014, 16:52:12 »
If headers were available for the 113 would you buy them or would you stick with the cast iron?

mdsalemi

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NC, Davidson
  • Posts: 7060
Re: Headers
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2014, 17:00:44 »
It depends:

First, would there be some kind of performance gain? That's one of the reported claims of smooth-walled, tubular headers. Without putting the car on a dyno I don't know if we could tell. How much performance or horsepower is gained or lost on hour engines via the exhaust system?
Second, they might be a requirement if the cast iron manifold breaks (have we not heard that before?) and it isn't possible to weld up properly, and the manifold is just too costly or NLA. In other words, we might be required someday to have headers!

I would not switch "just because" but would not rule them out if I needed a new manifold set…
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

jameshoward

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United States, New Jersey (formerly of London)
  • Posts: 1570
Re: Headers
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2014, 19:50:42 »
It depends:

First, would there be some kind of performance gain? That's one of the reported claims of smooth-walled, tubular headers. Without putting the car on a dyno I don't know if we could tell. How much performance or horsepower is gained or lost on hour engines via the exhaust system?
Second, they might be a requirement if the cast iron manifold breaks (have we not heard that before?) and it isn't possible to weld up properly, and the manifold is just too costly or NLA. In other words, we might be required someday to have headers!

I would not switch "just because" but would not rule them out if I needed a new manifold set…


Having recently done it, I would not switch "just because" unless someone was holding a gun to my head! Forget welding them up. Epic fail; waste of money. Not worth the time.

I think the time will come when we run out of readily available cast iron parts. And I think Dan port-polished his, didn't he? Maybe he could comment on the benefits.

(I assume we're talking about exhaust manifolds. If we're talking about something else, move on. Nothing to see here. Spare my embarrassment and please, speak English!)

 ;D
James Howard
1966 LHD 230SL

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7414
Re: Headers
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2014, 05:38:31 »
The headers use a different front pipe.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

hauser

  • Guest
Re: Headers
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2014, 07:03:13 »
I was hoping for a simple answer but I guess there isn't one.

My engine is going to be rebuilt by Metric.  I have been given options to enhance it.  Porting, polishing etc along with custom made pipes similar to those that were on the 230sl.

One of our members has gone this route but has only put 1000 miles since it was delivered to him. 

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Headers
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2014, 12:29:53 »
If you're after performance then the exhaust side of things is the right place to start with. Indeed, power depends on the amount of mixture your engine is able to gulp in a given amount of time, and being basically an air pump, it can't gulp more than it can evacuate. So exhaust is usually the first thing to consider for other improvements to be effective. However, exhaust is quite a complicated science involving scavenging and back-pressure.

The first thing you need to do is to determine the use you want to do with your car, and within this your personal driving style needs also being taken into consideration. A track engine requires different work than a fast road engine, which will also be different than a touring engine.

We often talk about power, but the most important thing is torque. The way it is delivered determines the personality of your engine.

The design of a header will determine the rpm of your peak torque and the rpm range at which it is delivered. If all the pipes have the same length, then all cylinders will deliver their max torque at the same rpm, and the range will be narrow. the length and diameter of these pipes will determine what rpm that is. This is most suited for a track engine because you end up with nice torque figures, usually at rather high rpm, but given the narrow rpm range usable, you need a close ratio transmission (like the Getrag dog leg). This is not suited to road use, where you need a wider rpm range. This is why AMG was fitting headers with different pipe length for road use. The max torque figure was less, but it was delivered over a wider rpm range, resulting in a more useable engine.

The camshaft profile then needs to be assorted to your exhaust characteristics as it also contributes to determine peak power and peak torque rpms. Finally the intake manifold needs to be assorted as the diameter and the length of the runners also contribute to torque characteristics. Then the rest of the engine needs to be developed according to the characteristics of these parts (porting, size of the valves, compression ratio, lighter rods and forged pistons if the rest is tuned for high rpm etc.).

If you're just into a rebuild and light improvement, your options are more limited, as your intake manifold and valve size will remain the same. Compression ratio will also remain the same if you keep your pistons. You will be left with optimizing all this (balancing, porting and polishing) and the two parts you can play with are the camshaft and the exhaust. They will need to be assorted to each other, and their specs will be determined by what the rest of your engine is able to take. And you then need to see if these specs are different enough from your stock camshaft and exhaust to justify for the upgrade.

In the end, I guess, the best is to talk to people who went that way before you to save some of the try and error process. Peter Lesler has been racing a pagoda some time ago so he will be able to help you. Joe and Dan will also have some good clues. I would also rely on what Metric Mechanic says as they have a great amount of experience. But you need to have a good discussion with them on the use you want to do of your car and your personal taste, as options will be different.


   
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 15:08:06 by GGR »

Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5721
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Headers
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2014, 16:34:48 »
See if Metric can supply the euro spec cam, that will help a bit. Headers sound like they would be a bit expensive to custom-make for Metric.

Not to take the topic too far off, but installing electronic fuel injection could also be an interesting possibility.
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Headers
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2014, 17:18:02 »
installing electronic fuel injection could also be an interesting possibility.

In fact, most power gains can be obtained through programmable ignition. The stock ignition curves are carefully studied to get the best out of the stock set-up. Modifying an engine will require a modified advance curve (not just moving it up and down) and though this can be obtained by working on inertia weights and the way vacuum advance works, programmable ignition curves are much more precise and versatile. It also allows for more powerful multi coil set ups that guarantee a more powerful spark including high up in the rpm range (one single coil ends up not having enough time to recharge properly at high rpm). The most bang for the buck is the EDIS wasted spark set-up managed by Megajolt.

Of course a complete fuel and spark programmable set-up is ideal, as it allows for complete versatility for any of the engine's configuration. This can be done with Megasquirt. The best is to start with a D-jet set-up. The cleanest application on a Pagoda would be to use a 280S block to get rid of the injection pump and use a 250CE head for the injector ports. There was a discussion about this here:  http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=16282.0

I did all that on a euro 5.0 M117 engine. It was great fun, I learned a lot and the motor works great: 300hp on the dyno, and very smooth and driveable including in city traffic. Reliable and trouble free too, as this is on a W111 Coupe which has been my daily driver: no issues since the conversion 70.000 miles ago, and a great smile on my face each time I step on the loud pedal!

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7414
Re: Headers
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2014, 04:43:00 »
I can verify that GGR did a great job on these two cars. I have driven them both and was impressed!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

hauser

  • Guest
Re: Headers
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2014, 06:12:58 »
See if Metric can supply the euro spec cam, that will help a bit. Headers sound like they would be a bit expensive to custom-make for Metric.

Not to take the topic too far off, but installing electronic fuel injection could also be an interesting possibility.

My car is a Euro model built for the German market.  I believe it already has the hotter cam.  BTW we also discussed high compression pistons.

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Headers
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2014, 01:30:21 »
I can verify that GGR did a great job on these two cars. I have driven them both and was impressed!

Thanks! We should take the Pagoda to Mid-Ohio track during next Pagoda University!

garymand

  • Inactive
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, CA, Meadow Vista
  • Posts: 537
Re: Headers
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2014, 16:12:18 »
The underlying problem of hot-rodding never changes!  When you change the motor’s ability to breath more, no improvement will be had if you don’t meet those new needs with the A/F ratio and mixture volume.

This car came with and "out-of-the-box," bench tuned FIP, ball-park adjusted for typical motors and typical drivers. 

If you have tuned it to your motor, you were getting the max performance from your specific motor.  Now, as you make changes to how much it can breathe, no improvement will be had if you don’t readjust the FIP to the new motor needs.  It is just like a carbureted hot rod: if you don't size the volume and tune the rods and jets to agree with the mods you make, the motor could lose performance. 

Bottom line: make sure you include fuel adjustment in the budget or it won't run nearly as good as it looks.

I would guess the current breathing volume and fuel capability would allow as much as 20% HP increase.  Let us know how much you get, what was changed to get it, and how much it cost.
Gary
Early 250SL German version owned since 71, C320, R350, 89 Porsche 944 Turbo S

hauser

  • Guest
Re: Headers
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2014, 19:50:40 »
FIP will also be rebuilt. 

garymand

  • Inactive
  • Gold
  • *****
  • USA, CA, Meadow Vista
  • Posts: 537
Re: Headers
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2014, 21:34:41 »
I didn't make myself clear.  I'll try again.  First and foremost, rebuilding the pump DOESNOT tune the pump to your motor.  Understand that they are not adjusted on a motor, they are adjusted on a flow bench.  They are adjusted for nominal motor needs.  They will work CLOSE to adequately on a stock good condition motor.  1st, they are not TUNED to your stock motor and 2nd, once you start modifying the motor you are gauranteed to have a NON-OPTIMAL A/F ratio and less-than optimal HP and possibly worse performance that what you started with

As GGR and I were alluding to,  you need to adjust the A/F ratio to match the needs of the modified motor.  His suggestion was modern  computer controlled FI that is much easier to get into tuned state and controlls much better over the whole power band.  The FIP has enough range for any reasonable mods you can make,  it is less investment, but it is a longer more difficult and less flexible to tune.

Bottom line, from what you wrote, is don't bother with the hotrodding if you keep the stock "carburator."   The stock "rebuilt" FIP was not adjusted to feed the amount of gas your hungrier motor will need. 

In addition, take a look at your manifolds: they are already pretty good, unless you want to go bigger diameter exhaust.  And then, you will need toi readjust the FIP to match it to the new engine requirements.

I hope this gets the concept accross.  Anyone else have some insight to add?
Gary
Early 250SL German version owned since 71, C320, R350, 89 Porsche 944 Turbo S

GGR

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, DC, Washington
  • Posts: 1470
Re: Headers
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2014, 22:53:52 »
In addition, take a look at your manifolds: they are already pretty good, unless you want to go bigger diameter exhaust. 

That's the thing. I would rely on Metric Mechanic experience. If they sell headers, they should also be able to say what gains are to be expected and what is required regarding the rest of the engine.


Cees Klumper

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Fallbrook
  • Posts: 5721
    • http://SL113.org
Re: Headers
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2014, 03:50:36 »
Does anyone see any benefit to polishing / cleaning out the stock cast iron manifolds?
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

stickandrudderman

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • United Kingdom, England, Richmond
  • Posts: 2926
    • http://www.colinferns.com
Re: Headers
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2014, 07:16:14 »
There will be the tiniest of improvements for a short while until the inside becomes coated in soot and then the benefit is lost. The only time this is worth doing is when it's for a competition engine where the performance gain is only required for a couple of races or one-off event.
Inlet polishing is a different story obviously but even then the gains are small.