Re: Hi Everyone! And help me find a mint w113..

[DaveB]

This sounds churlish even as I type it but...I'm not all that interested in scrolling through screens and screens of 107 images. Could you minimise your photos? (Or better, get that pagoda and then start uploading).

Sorry about that! I tried to delete this message but couldn't see how.
Guess you love your car but...to me, the 107 is a reminder of how design went bad in the 70s

Oops, sorry again

[Cees Klumper]

Well it seems the days that Pagodas were cheaper in the US are over! What prices...

[GGR]

Well it seems the days that Pagodas were cheaper in the US are over! What prices...

Indeed, I was thinking the same thing! But asking/estimated price is not necessarily what they will be going for.

[GGR]

If they do, it will be interesting to follow up the Hagerty valuing tool in the coming weeks!

[KevinC]

Indeed, I was thinking the same thing! But asking/estimated price is not necessarily what they will be going for. If they do, it will be interesting to follow up the Hagerty valuing tool in the coming weeks!

The Hagerty Valuation Tool today suggests that the average #2 quality 280SL would have sold in May 2014 for $83k and the average #1 would have sold for $140k. Most cars that I have seen personally at RM and Gooding are #1 to #2 quality so the estimates really aren't that high IF the cars are what they are claimed to be. Gooding sold a white 1971 280SL in Scottsdale in January for $130K and even up close it seemed to be a nut and bold restored car meaning that the seller may have lost money on it. Interestingly Gooding is listing a third 280SL in their upcoming line up but it shows and is estimated more like a #3. Keep in mind though that Eric said "mint" so I left that one off.

All stated, this are the PEBBLE BEACH auctions and it wouldn't surprise me if that fact alone may add 10-15% to the value of these cars. IMHO while Barrett-Jackson's Scottsdale auction in January seems to be the place to buy especially nice American muscle cars, Pebble Beach attracts the best crowd for the European classics.  

[KevinC]

Here's another candidate...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Benz-SL-Class-280SL-1969-mercedes-benz-280-sl-incredibly-original-southern-california-280-/221513673615?forcerrptr=true&hash=item33933e6b8f&item=221513673615&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

[Garry]

At the rate this is going I think the moderator needs to move this to “other Cars"

[Erics]

Four cars here appear to be nice... would be worth the airfare to California to check them out!

http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1968-mercedes-benz-280-sl-3/

http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1971-mercedes-benz-280-sl-7/

http://rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1068224

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21917/lot/209/

Looks like a few fantastic cars. Last one looks super crisp.

Estimated prices are high.

Can't take this much time to go over to America. Highly impractical.

Sorry for posting my r107 earlier. I don't believe for a minute design went bad! I think it is very clean shapes just like the w113.

Massive fan of the ds! Had a ride in a sm at the weekend, what a car!

[Erics]

Here's another candidate...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Benz-SL-Class-280SL-1969-mercedes-benz-280-sl-incredibly-original-southern-california-280-/221513673615?forcerrptr=true&hash=item33933e6b8f&item=221513673615&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

Thanks again for this. Big fan of the colour.

The dashboard seems painted white or cream?
No mention of history.
Ideally i prefer a car painted in one colour rather than hardtop different.
Indentations on lights are there but not particularly crisp?

[Garry]

I think the angle of the photo is making the dash look different, given that it is silver, a very typical Mercedes colour.

 The two tone cars with different roof colour are in my opinion, something special and was a costed option that is not easy to find in original spec's. I may be biased but I am spending quite a bit of money now getting mine back to the data card of the dark blue over the light blue from all one colour.

Garry

[Bonnyboy]

Hey Erics,  I love your enthusiasm. 

After reviewing this thread I just have to ask if you have driven a Pagoda yet.  You may find that a 230SL done up properly is everything that you want.  Yes I have a european 280sl with standard tranny and leather interior but to be honest, I would trade it tomorrow for my friend's 230sl euro with a standard tranny and leather interior.  Cars all drive differently so make sure you can get a feel for what you want before you dive head first into a purchase. 

Check the data cards and learn how to read them at a moment's notice  - then you can see what is real or not.   A different coloured hardtop is special.     

I was at an auto show last year where guys tend to brag about their car being say one of only 893 Mustangs with a certain option package, so I put my own little blurb on the window of my Euro 280sl just to poke fun at the muscle car guys. The math really doesn't work the way I put it, but it got lots of attention from the muscle car guys.

If Pagodas were valued on options like say a Hemi Cuda, this 280sl would be a very rare car (lets do the math)
•   Only 48,912 Pagodas made between 1963-1971  (compare this to the 606,000 Mustangs made just in 1966)
•   Roughly ½ of the Pagodas were 280SLs  (down to 1 of 23,885)
•   Of those, 75% were exported out of Europe (1/2 of all production exported to USA) (1 of 5,971)
•   Its said that 80% of 1969-70 cars were automatics (down to 1 of 1200)
•   Of that it is estimated that 3% had a limited slip differential (1 of 36)
•   If you factor in 20% of Pagodas had leather interiors, this car could be 1 of 7 made with a similar build sheet
•   But wait – this car was ordered with a contrasting hardtop colour (15% of production)- so it could be 1 of 1
•   Does that make it rare - no - all Pagodas are special


Good luck.

[66andBlue]

.... Estimated prices are high.
Can't take this much time to go over to America. Highly impractical. ...

Since you want a car in "mint" conditions you should get used to prices well over US$100K otherwise the car will NOT be mint.
If you plan to spend that much then the costs for a quick trip to the USA are only a small percentage.  You could lose a lot more!

Perhaps your best bet is to hop on the Eurostar and visit http://www.geevers-classic-cars.com/, that will tell you what daily drivers now cost in Europe. For something more upscale visit these two:
http://www.pagoden-center.de/
http://www.autosalon-singen.de/

[Erics]

Hi mate,

Yes, i drove a couple and passengered in many.

This is why i want one!

The one i should prob have bought was the Howard Wise light blue car. I fell in love with it. Was very sporty and less cruiser than my r107.
http://www.howardwisecars.co.uk/index.php/classic/car-details/mercedes_280sl_pagoda_lhd_1969_blue_terra/

Total resto. Was so crisp, so lovely to drive. The level of detail s amazing. Went through 7 year resto. Prob was that for £100k car, it had zero history apart from resto documentation.

Sold to f1 driver paul di resta who bought it for his wife.

Then i drove leggy ones and did enjoy them much.......

Cheers,
Eric.

Hey Erics,  I love your enthusiasm. 

After reviewing this thread I just have to ask if you have driven a Pagoda yet.  You may find that a 230SL done up properly is everything that you want.  Yes I have a european 280sl with standard tranny and leather interior but to be honest, I would trade it tomorrow for my friend's 230sl euro with a standard tranny and leather interior.  Cars all drive differently so make sure you can get a feel for what you want before you dive head first into a purchase. 

Check the data cards and learn how to read them at a moment's notice  - then you can see what is real or not.   A different coloured hardtop is special.     

I was at an auto show last year where guys tend to brag about their car being say one of only 893 Mustangs with a certain option package, so I put my own little blurb on the window of my Euro 280sl just to poke fun at the muscle car guys. The math really doesn't work the way I put it, but it got lots of attention from the muscle car guys.

If Pagodas were valued on options like say a Hemi Cuda, this 280sl would be a very rare car (lets do the math)
•   Only 48,912 Pagodas made between 1963-1971  (compare this to the 606,000 Mustangs made just in 1966)
•   Roughly ½ of the Pagodas were 280SLs  (down to 1 of 23,885)
•   Of those, 75% were exported out of Europe (1/2 of all production exported to USA) (1 of 5,971)
•   Its said that 80% of 1969-70 cars were automatics (down to 1 of 1200)
•   Of that it is estimated that 3% had a limited slip differential (1 of 36)
•   If you factor in 20% of Pagodas had leather interiors, this car could be 1 of 7 made with a similar build sheet
•   But wait – this car was ordered with a contrasting hardtop colour (15% of production)- so it could be 1 of 1
•   Does that make it rare - no - all Pagodas are special


Good luck.

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Some sound advice from Alfred ... I for example don't consider my car "mint condition" perhaps a -2 by Euro standards (needs some engine bay clean up, perhaps a major overhaul as well ~ I've been quoted $12K for that work).

Last year at the 50st anniversary in Williamsburg, Virginia some millionaire (my guess ~ just the way he talked and the way he was ready to part with his money LOL) stopped at my car and offered me in a heavy southern accent $70K US and a air ticked back to Canada for my car (he must have heard that my car came in second on the show field as a peoples choice also saw my Canadian licence plate).

I turned him down and simply told him the car is not for sale I have instructions from my daughter never to sell  

So you can see to come near mint condition with my car I need to come up to that $100K or over that mark. So as Alfred mentioned, jump on a plane and look those cars over if you really are after a mint one. Your time and money will be well spend trust me! If you get one in Europe be prepared to pay a lot more from what I've seen in the past 2 years. So make it a vacation trip and have fun finding your dream car.

Ian (Bonnyboy) you point out some great facts and figures, well done!... makes a guy thing

[Erics]

Flying to the US is not so much the problem. Flying for potentially nothing (which happens a lot with cars) and taking time off is more of an issue.

I bought my 964rs from auto salon singen in dec 2006.... So i know these guys well enough.

Will check out the others.

Thanks for the links.

Since you want a car in "mint" conditions you should get used to prices well over US$100K otherwise the car will NOT be mint.
If you plan to spend that much then the costs for a quick trip to the USA are only a small percentage.  You could lose a lot more!

Perhaps your best bet is to hop on the Eurostar and visit http://www.geevers-classic-cars.com/, that will tell you what daily drivers now cost in Europe. For something more upscale visit these two:
http://www.pagoden-center.de/
http://www.autosalon-singen.de/

[Garry]

Erics, 

A good thing with this Group is that there are a lot of people through out the world that are able to look at a car for you before you fly anywhere and tell you pretty quickly if it is worth travelling to do an appraisal.  There are also lots of professional MB mechanics and restorers here who for a small fee in the cost of buying a Pagoda in “mint” condition as you have indicated can go and do a full apprasial for you. The cost in relation to the purchase price is peanuts and has the potential to save you thousands in either repairs or making an informed decision.

As Alfred said and others have also said, you are not going to get a “mint” pagoda under $100USD and in Australia you wont get a “mint RHD Pagoda under $125-150k and at those prices they are being purchased by UK people(who are not flying to Aust to look) and shipped there at the moment which is telling me that you are not going to get one in the UK anywhere near $100k

You have great enthusiasm but you are already talking about the ‘ones you should have’ and unless you are prepared to spend some dollars and have proper apprasials and then quickly take a day or two to satisfy yourself that it is truely “mint” if that is what you think you need to do, then you are not in the race and will always get guzumped by other buyers who are prepared to make the effort to get out there and look.

Getting hooked up on things like  “restored but documentation, no light notches, must be 280Sl  cannot take the time to go to look etc. etc.  appears to be stifling your approach to getting a good Pagoda.

[66andBlue]

At the rate this is going I think the moderator needs to move this to “other Cars"

R107 photos are now here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=20908

[Erics]

Hi Garry, the thing is that by posting this thread, i already received a lot of feedback from members who either are interested to sell or pointed me towards good sources.

I take your point, but for me, a car is an emotional purchase and i like to go see for myself and get a feel, use my own judgement.

Plus i am not in a rush. The summer's almost over and prices will soften. Whether bc of lack of sun or economic climate.

I have a few leads i am happy with at this stage.

Eric.

Erics, 

A good thing with this Group is that there are a lot of people through out the world that are able to look at a car for you before you fly anywhere and tell you pretty quickly if it is worth travelling to do an appraisal.  There are also lots of professional MB mechanics and restorers here who for a small fee in the cost of buying a Pagoda in “mint” condition as you have indicated can go and do a full apprasial for you. The cost in relation to the purchase price is peanuts and has the potential to save you thousands in either repairs or making an informed decision.

As Alfred said and others have also said, you are not going to get a “mint” pagoda under $100USD and in Australia you wont get a “mint RHD Pagoda under $125-150k and at those prices they are being purchased by UK people(who are not flying to Aust to look) and shipped there at the moment which is telling me that you are not going to get one in the UK anywhere near $100k

You have great enthusiasm but you are already talking about the ‘ones you should have’ and unless you are prepared to spend some dollars and have proper apprasials and then quickly take a day or two to satisfy yourself that it is truely “mint” if that is what you think you need to do, then you are not in the race and will always get guzumped by other buyers who are prepared to make the effort to get out there and look.

Getting hooked up on things like  “restored but documentation, no light notches, must be 280Sl  cannot take the time to go to look etc. etc.  appears to be stifling your approach to getting a good Pagoda.

[KevinC]

Eric,

One good thing is that at any point in time, there might be several very nice pagodas for sale on the US west coast where you are more likely to find a rust-free example. IMHO, not be-grudging the cars that have had rust repair that's done well...a rust free car is a good place to start when looking for a "mint" vehicle. I pointed out the Monterey area auctions mainly because it seems that there will be a handful of nice cars available at one time in the same area.

Also, in my opinion...I don't see prices softening....here's why...prior era SL's are going crazy price wise. There are 18 300SL's up for auction in California next weekend  and the LOWEST estimate is $900k. These were $350k to $500k autos just five years ago. Even underpowered 190SL's are approaching $200K. It just stands to reason that the (our) next generation cars will be pulled up also. For further back up, check out this article from just six weeks ago:

http://www.petrolicious.com/why-the-mercedes-benz-280sl-pagoda-is-collectable

I am sticking with my prediction that mint pagodas will be $200k by 2016 if things keep moving as they have been.

In other words, if you truly want one...I wouldn't slow down on your hunt.

Kevin

[DaveB]

Sorry for posting my r107 earlier. I don't believe for a minute design went bad! I think it is very clean shapes just like the w113.

That was gracious of you Eric, after my rude remarks! Thanks.

[sandcrab59]

Eric
Finally found my notes from last August when I was at the 50th anniversary in Germany.
I went to Stuttgart to visit the factory and the museum and the classic car center.
While at the factory to go on 2 tours (last tour I did was 1972) I met a person from Boston that worked there and she said that I should visit Meilenwerk about 2 miles from the factory.
They have a building that is half glass and contains many restored old M/B cars.
It serves 2 purposes.
 1- People without garages can store there cars in the glass half of the building in small compartments that is reached by elevators (Lifts) . It is something to see cars stacked upon each other all in glass.
So if your car was there and you wanted to go on a drive, they use the elevator to bring the car down and off you go.
After your drive you bring your back and it goes back to its place, by the elevators.
2- They sell many fully restored M/B cars that are in mint condition.
I have seen a Gullwing and a 300SL Roaster for sale and the sign stated "Ask for the Price"
All other cars had a price on them. Nothing under 100,000 Euros.
One contact I made was Holger Bockemuehl who sells 280Sl and also 230 and 250SL's.
He is very informative and is a good contact for a mint 113.
His email is
hb@bockemuehl-classic-cars.de
Let me know how you made out.
Tom Mrowka
sandcrab59

[KevinC]

This car has all of the possibilities of being a MINT car and could very well be a bargain to boot.

Eric, consider this your nudge.

http://bringatrailer.com/2014/08/19/44-years-owned-original-1969-mercedes-benz-280sl-4-speed/#comment-723915

[Erics]

lovely car Kevin but red not for me..

What do we think of this?

http://www.thehairpincompany.co.uk/car-Mercedes-280SL-1968-2.html

or this (the 230 auto in grey):
 
http://www.veloceclassic.com

[Norm]

Hello Eric,

In looking at the "grey" 230 in the provided link, I believe that may actually be 162 Blue Grey.  Although I am a little prejudice, I think it is a fabulous color combination with the parchment interior.

Not sure about the white roof......

Good luck with your search.

Norm

[KevinC]

Both cars appear to be quite nice based on the photos. The Grey car certainly has a more unique color combination. On any of these cars the  hubcap paint color should match the top but that's an easy fix. Could be that the car isn't driven often with the hardtop mounted and the PO just preferred the caps to match the body.