Skirted disaster! Where to find inner tubes for Zenith wire wheels? P190/70/14

[Roadstir]

I purchased my 280 in 2007 and it came with four well-treaded tires.  After reassuring myself they were in good shape I never gave them another thought other than maintain air pressure.

The other night I took the girlfriend out for a nice dinner downtown and a drive afterwards.  We drove up I95 about 65mph, in moderate traffic, alongside some large semis.  After about 20 miles we drove down some old, dark, twisty roads until the call of nature intruded.  "Stop NOW at this Wawa!"  And, just we pulled into the parking spot there was this huge Whoooosh and the sidewall blew out!  I mean it followed the treadline around for at least 12-15", almost like it was a recap.  (not)  GOD was truly in the back seat on this ride.

Had it flat-bedded home and with a knock or tow on the spinner it was off.  Took it to Merchant's Tire and they ordered two new ones for me, but when they found it the wheels needed tubes they told me that company policy won't let them mount tubed tires.  Now I need to find

a.  a place that will mount the new ones
b.  to find the correct tubes.  Found a couple with straight stems, but won't work with wire rims.  Is one any better than the other?

Note- I put less than 500 miles a year on this car, so it didn't make sense to go to Costco or get a high-mileage tire like Michelin.
Note- tire salesman tells me that the tire code indicated that the old ones are 1998's!
Note- 1 rim is out of true and I'm having to send it to from VA to CA to get it done.  They offered to seal the wheel ($23) to make it tubeless, as well.  Thoughts?

[GGR]

Normally you can't fit tubes in tubeless tires. You need tires that are built for that.

I have no experience with sealing wire wheels. You may want to enquire on a British roadster forum, I guess they would know if it's good or not.

[jameshoward]

Normally you can't fit tubes in tubeless tires. You need tires that are built for that.

I have no experience with sealing wire wheels. You may want to enquire on a British roadster forum, I guess they would know if it's good or not.

That's not strictly true. You can fit tubes to tubeless tires, no problem. I've done it a lot in 4X4s when driving in harsh climates. Without tubes you'd get 5 miles before stopping to repair a puncture. However, I'm not sure how it would work on a road car, and the issue would be that the speeds could be different. That said, I've covered thousands of miles in 4X4 on excellent paved roads without an issue up to about 80mph. 1998 is old for a tyre, I suppose, but if the sidewall isn't cracked in any way, or shows no visible signs of damage, that age alone is no real reason to change the tyres. That said, some places that sell tyres will tell you that they only last about 8 years. Other places will tell you that's BS.

[GGR]

You can put a tube in a tubeless tire and it will work. However, you may end up having issues as the inside of tubeless tires are different and will damage the tube by friction. When I was still living in France I got the issue with my DS. No shop would fit tubes in tubeless tires because it was forbidden for security reasons.

[jpinet]

That's not strictly true. You can fit tubes to tubeless tires, no problem. I've done it a lot in 4X4s when driving in harsh climates. Without tubes you'd get 5 miles before stopping to repair a puncture. However, I'm not sure how it would work on a road car, and the issue would be that the speeds could be different. That said, I've covered thousands of miles in 4X4 on excellent paved roads without an issue up to about 80mph. 1998 is old for a tyre, I suppose, but if the sidewall isn't cracked in any way, or shows no visible signs of damage, that age alone is no real reason to change the tyres. That said, some places that sell tyres will tell you that they only last about 8 years. Other places will tell you that's BS.

I have to disagree with you about age not being a factor to change a tire, whether it shows visible damage or not. I was a business consultant with Michelin for years (not specifically in tires) and have learned that a tire has a life of 6 to 10 years. Rubber ages even sitting on a shelf. Take an old rubber band for example. You've seen how they become brittle with age. Same for a tire. I know no one wants to throw out what looks like a good tire after 10 years, but we should. Given that what is between me and the road are 4 tire patches the size of my palm, it's not a place where I want to skimp on money. We change brakes when they are worn because we can see it and we would never think of putting old brakes as replacement. The thing with tires is that they age, but we can't always see it. If you are buying used tires, check the manufacturing date. It's a stamped code mandatory since 2000 and many european companies had it way before this date. See on the web how to know this.

[jpinet]

I purchased my 280 in 2007 and it came with four well-treaded tires.  After reassuring myself they were in good shape I never gave them another thought other than maintain air pressure.

The other night I took the girlfriend out for a nice dinner downtown and a drive afterwards.  We drove up I95 about 65mph, in moderate traffic, alongside some large semis.  After about 20 miles we drove down some old, dark, twisty roads until the call of nature intruded.  "Stop NOW at this Wawa!"  And, just we pulled into the parking spot there was this huge Whoooosh and the sidewall blew out!  I mean it followed the treadline around for at least 12-15", almost like it was a recap.  (not)  GOD was truly in the back seat on this ride.

Had it flat-bedded home and with a knock or tow on the spinner it was off.  Took it to Merchant's Tire and they ordered two new ones for me, but when they found it the wheels needed tubes they told me that company policy won't let them mount tubed tires.  Now I need to find

a.  a place that will mount the new ones
b.  to find the correct tubes.  Found a couple with straight stems, but won't work with wire rims.  Is one any better than the other?

Note- I put less than 500 miles a year on this car, so it didn't make sense to go to Costco or get a high-mileage tire like Michelin.
Note- tire salesman tells me that the tire code indicated that the old ones are 1998's!
Note- 1 rim is out of true and I'm having to send it to from VA to CA to get it done.  They offered to seal the wheel ($23) to make it tubeless, as well.  Thoughts?

DO NOT put a tube in a tubeless tire unless you like to live dangerously! Tube tires need the help of a tube to maintain sidewall stability and air pressure. Radial tires are constructed very differently. A tube in a tubeless tire will create huge amounts of friction between the side of the tube and the sidewall as it flexes and rubs against the tube and heats up. Since sidewalls are the weakest point of construction, you don't want heat to build up there, as the end result will be an increasingly weakened sidewall until it finally explodes. And you won't see any exterior evidence of this before disaster strikes. God may not always be sitting in the back seat!

[Cees Klumper]

Allthings considered having the wheels sealed may be your best bet.

When I bought my car it had Michelin tires with lots of thread left, almost like new. Then one lost a big patch of rubber driving on the highway - could have been a lot worse, like a blow-out.

[Roadstir]

Here's a page from the Firestone site mentioning radial tubes, which surprised me.  Sounds like they are designed to be used in radial tires and may be safe...

http://www.firestonetubes.com/tube-safety_5205_ct.aspx

[GGR]

It looks like there are two different issues: radial tubes for radial tires and no tubes in tubeless tires. I think there are radial tires made to be used with tubes, and other radial tires that are tubeless, that shouldn't be used with tubes.

[RonB]

Check out Tire Rack - I know they have tires & tubes.

[mdsalemi]

Both Coker and Universal which cater to vintage car owners have a large selection of tubes. I would call them and speak to a human in the vintage tube/tire business (don't rely on email) to determine what your problem was; what the solutions might be, and which tube(s) might work--tires, too. They also maintain some lists of independent places that will mount for you.

Wire wheels that require tubed tires on a Pagoda? Maybe the solution is eBay: sell the wheels and buy a set of OEM ones.

[kampala]

ROADSTIR,

It seems to me you have provided the safest and most practical solution.  You mentioned that all four tires were the same one from when you purchased the car - tire date code 1998.  Yet you are only buying two tires?

You also, mention that you have a company that will "seal" the rim to accommodate tubeless tires and they will only charge $23 bucks a wheel. 

So, even though it involves shipping (if you can't find a closer outfit that will do the same), why not get all 4 rims sealed for tubeless and buy 4 new tubeless tires.   Wouldn't this solve the issue and provide you with the cleanest solution with the lowest risk?  Maybe I'm mis-reading something?

 

[garymand]

JMO,  I have a hard time believing you can seal a spoked rim.  The spokes go through the rim just like a bike spoke, with an adjustment nut.  The nut rotates for adjustment AND as you go around corners.  Wire wheels are a bad idea.  They went out in the 60's due to the lack of performance, wear, and detuning.  I had them on a 68 Spitfire and learn to hate them.  A friend had them on his E-type.  His where beefier and he didn't do corners like I did.  He didn't have the same amount of issues: hubs had play fore and aft, spokes creeked on corners.  So the wheels were flexing in corners.  I had radials and tubes.  No one back then mentioned and issue with tubes inside radials.

Honestly, I understand the nostalgic uniqueness of spokes, but.  I really don't think you can effectively seal the spokes without welding them and that is metalurgically stupid.  You can't epoxy them, it will crack.  Maybe a non hardening coating that allows the spokes to move but won't flow with rotation.

Since you aren't concerned with originality, follow the above advice: dump the nostalgia and get new 16 inch rims.  Check with some local wrecking yards for a good set of newer MB wheels.  Very few after market wheels take the hugh MB center caps.

Tires?  10 year old tires are unsafe, act weird, track weird, grip wierd.  I had to dump a set of Pilots that had nearly full treat but broke down inside over the 10 yrs of sitting around.  I thought I had alignment troubles.  I mentioned I'd never buy michelins again and the tire guy said it was the age not the tire. 

[Roadstir]

Many thanks to everyone for their advice and help!  Am dumping the 14" wire Zenith wheels and looking for a set of 16" or 17" aftermarkets.

Roadstir - VA

[garymand]

Let us know.  You should feel a big improvement.  BTW, aftermarkets have smaller hub hole and MB caps are too big by 1/2 ".  You might be happier if you can locate a newer set of AMG 17" from someone who prefers 19s.  I see them with tires for about $1000.  Its a bit difficult finding after market wheels that look as good on a W113 as BM wheels do.   

[66andBlue]

...  and looking for a set of 16" or 17" aftermarkets.

No need to re-invent the wheels (pun intended) just buy some CLK wheels as Jim Villers did: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9676.msg72721#msg72721
You know they will fit and since he is not too far from you could actually look at them, up close and personal.