Bringing 64 230SL back to life - Need help with the journey. (iterative thread)

[jf308]

Hopefully, this will be an iterative thread as I troubleshoot several items which are keeping my new to me 64 230 SL from coming back to life.

So far taken care of the little things (cleaned gas tank, fresh fuel filter, new rubber fuel lines, spark plugs, wires, fluids) but on first attempt today -- NO START.

PO had told me that I needed a FI pump, so I purchased one used from Vintage Benz, and installed it.
Fuel Pump was tested and is operational.

NO START SYMPTOMS:

1) Fuse #4 is a 16A red fuse.  If you turn the key and leave pump running, Fuse will blow after 15-20 seconds.
2) if 8A fuse installed (per guidance) it blows pretty much right away.

3) With 16A fuse, engine will crank but no starting noises at all.  Crank for 10 to 15 seconds per try.

4) Intermittently, I will see SMOKE from the area near the alternator and a small black box (relay?) on the upper part of the passenger side firewall in front of radiator overflow/fill cap area.

OK....where to begin? 

Would the pump blow a fuse one of the lines/injector lines is clogged?

How to tell if I am getting fuel past the FI Pump? (it was a used part from a running SL). 

I would like comments/guidance versus just towing to the German Auto mechanic....  THANKS IN ADVANCE.

Regards, John

[nahuston]

The only fuel pump with an electrical draw is the one at the rear by the tank - it is only going to blow a fuse if it has an internal issue or the wiring to it has a short. You could pinch off the output line completely and although eventually the pump might overheat and and break/ blow a fuse it would take hours (or maybe days or weeks).

Put 12v to the rear pump directly and pull the line off of the FI pump and see if you are getting fuel up there, even better might just be pulling the return line off of the regulator because the FI pump allows fuel to flow back to the tank that it does not use. If you have fuel flowing into the FI pump then crack an injector line while cranking and see if you get fuel out of it. you may have to bleed these (6) anyway with a new FI pump installed.

Do you have spark?

But before you do anything with the FI pump read through all of the info about that system in the technical manual here. It is invaluable info.

[jf308]

UPDATE  10/3/14

Flushed and re-installed gas tank.  The usual varnish/grime/rusty fuel.

New Spark Plug wires and plugs.  New rubber fuel hoses.   Blow out of steel lines with compressed air.

Two "problems" (so far).  Solutions in process.

1) Purchased FI Pump.  Installed.   No fuel coming thru despite cleaning fuel tank and new rubber lines.  Suspect "frozen" pump pistons/rack.

Removed the FI pump (again, my fault  for trusting that it was from a running car therefore AOK.)
Removed the fittings and soaked with PB Blaster in hopes that the pistons under the seals would move.  Truthfully could not see into the small hole in the fitting top.
Checked the rack via the 10 mm cap on the front of the FI pump.  Could not tell if it was stuck or not.
Cam turns without problem, but unsure how many pistons may be stuck.

Decided to fashion a tool to remove the check valves above the pistons/cylinders to see what was happening inside.
Used a 1/4 standard nipple connector that would connect to a air hose for an air tool.  Had to grind down the exterior "nut" section so that it would fit into the cylinders.  The female threads
were able to grab the first couple threads and then a short tug upwards using Vice Grips on the nipple part removed the check valves. 
Rotated the cam and noted movement in 4 of the 6 pistons.  TWO STUCK Pistons.
Soaked in PB Blaster for several hours.  Repeated turn of the cam.  No change.
Decided to "tap" the piston down with a wooden dowel (similar to a golf tee) with a flat end.   Quick tap and the piston moved downward for both.
Checked the movement of the rack.  Pushes in and returns cleanly.

SUCCESS, at least I think so.

Will check the remainder of the threads on the forum to see if I need to witness rotation of the cylinder walls or something else before I feel comfortable re-installing the FI Pump.

2) FUEL DELIVERY ISSUE.

With the FI pump off, I wanted to check Fuel delivery to the fuel feeder line.  Fuel pump runs fine.  Seems to pump a decent flow into a 2 gallon tank from a test feed.
Affixed the rubber fuel lines...and the fuel input lines from the fuel tank.  5 gallons of fuel.  NO FUEL FEEDING through the lines.
Tried compressed air back into the tank.  Heard the fuel bubbling, so assume that the lines are clear.

Removed the fuel output line from the tank.  No fuel drainage.
Removed the 22 MM drain plug at bottom of tank.  Minimal if any fuel drainage.

Based on everything else I have read....looks like the fuel input to the Flower Pot is clogged. 

Removed the fuel sender from inside the trunk.  Verified that there is no fuel inside the Flower Pot itself.

Next steps:  Find a way to clear the flower pot input underneath the fuel return line.  Hmmm.  Not sure exactly how. YET  !!   :-)

[jf308]

UPDATE: Sunday 10/5

The bad news:   Figured out that I had installed the freed up IP at 20 degrees ATDC with the IP marks aligned correctly BUT did not have the engine on the COMPRESSION STROKE.  Therefore was 180 degrees off timing.

Removed IP (again)....and reinstalled.  I am getting good at this since its the third time for REMOVE & REINSTALL.

The good news:  With the spark plugs out, coil disconnected and the fuel lines to the IP disconnected -- tried to get fuel to the IP. 

(had to overfill the gas tank to ensure flower pot had fuel since the lower inlet is definitely clogged).

Short story:  We have fuel to the IP  !!!  The line to the CSV shot fuel.  I cranked and cranked (at least 6 times at 20 seconds each) -- but no fuel to the six IP outlets.   Loosened the input line to the rear of the pump and fuel began to spray out.  So knew that I had fuel.  Began to get disappointed as I thought that the IP was for some reason not priming, or worse yet the pump may not be operational for some other reason.

Patience is a virtue with these cars I am learning.  About 5 more 20 second cranks.  Taking my time inbetween and fuel began at the forward most outlet.  Then the second, and followed in sequence by each of the others with each subsequent cranking session. Tightened each output line and moved over to the other side of the engine and loosened each of the injector lines.

Couple cranks and proved out fuel to all six injectors.  Heres hoping that the injectors are not clogged themselves.

Very excited.  Seemingly getting close.

Will re-install the plugs and move the car outside to try to start it after the Broncos / Cardinals game.    Its been 15 years...what's a couple more hours.

John

[ja17]

Good progress John!

[jf308]

One step forward, and two back.

Tried to start the car.... multiple cranking sessions.  Nada.

Tracked a few things back per the Haynes workshop manual....

No Spark at plugs.

No spark at wire from Coil to Distributor.

Tested electrical signal when key turned on.  Wiring harness thru white Bosch rectangular BALLAST Resistor.  YES.

Electrical signal from white Bosch thru Black "cylindrical" thingie to the coil... NO.

Green wire from Black Cylindrical thing is connected to the + on the coil.  See Photo.

SHOULD I JUST CIRCUMVENT THE BLACK THING AND CONNECT THE OUTPUT FROM THE WHITE RECTANGULAR BOX DIRECTLY TO THE POSITIVE ON THE COIL?

[ja17]

The black thing is a radio filter. Disconnect it for now.  Most likely the fork connector going to the contact points has turned enough to contact the  breaker plate in the distributor. This will short out your ignition. To test place a piece of thin cardboard between the ignition contacts. Turn the ignition on and use a 12 volt test light to follow the power all the way to the cardboard when all is correct

[jf308]

Thank you.  Was wondering what the "black cylinder" filter was.  It didn't show in the schematics for the wiring diagram on the forum, so I was leery about not having it in the circuit.

P98 in the Haynes workshop manual suggests similar ignition / coil tests which I will try today.

Fingers crossed.

John

[jf308]

Close...but no cigar.

Connection white ballast resistor to + coil.
Checked 12V with points gapped with cardboard.  All OK.
Confirm good spark at end of Distributor wire, and at Spark Plug #6.

Tried to start the car.  Initially, it sounded like it was trying to kick over and catch.  Probably tried 10 cranks of 15 seconds each.  Definitely sounded promising but didn't start.

Now, after taking a lunch break.  It cranks, but does NOT sound like its ready to fire.  Not a big fan of starting fluid but tried it in the air intake and IT RAN ON THE STARTING FLUID AND DIED RIGHT AWAY.  So,   Its not a spark problem at this point, and I had fuel prior to this evidenced by fuel at the CSV line, each of the IP inlet lines, and also at the injector lines.  

Could it be NOT getting fuel again for some reason?  If the return fuel is restricted would that cause a problem like pressure lock (maybe I will disconnect from fuel tank and see if it collects in a catch can).  I read the Starting Aid thread but unsure if the solenoids would keep it from starting or just helpful on really cold starts.

Also, you can hear the fuel pump run, but if you leave on for 15 seconds without cranking -- it blows Fuse #4.

Next steps: 

1)
I am going to crack each of the injector lines again  If there is fuel coming thru, then I will pull the injectors.
or
2)
Take the fuel tank out of the equation again, and connect an input line and return line to a 5 gal can.  Then confirm (AGAIN) that I have fuel at the injector lines

Hmmm.  (scratching head).  Just trying not to have to tow this to the German Auto mechanic for assistance.  Starting to get a bit disheartened.  

[nahuston]

Electric fuel pump should not blow a fuse with ign on for 15 seconds. Sorry if I missed this but did you ever do a flow test out of the FI pump with the key just turned to on? Its just one hose clamp to take off and will give you a good indication of of the electric fuel pump's capacity. The electric pump might just be old and worn out.

[jf308]

UPDATE:  Tuesday PM 10/7

This just keeps getting stranger and stranger.

Background:  Yes, I did an informal flow test of the pump, and it pushes a decent flow.  Did not measure pressure.

Tonight, I got the car to run on starter fluid.  Then died.  Obviously suspected fuel issue (repeat).

Cracked each of the lines at the injectors.  No fuel now.

Cracked the 19MM input line to the back of the IP and with the coil wire disconnected, turned on the fuel pump.  NO FUEL AT THE ENTRY to the IP now.

Must be the damned tank again clogging something, I suspect.

Jacked up the car again and connected a direct input hose from a gas can to the fuel pump, and rechecked the input line to the IP.  Fuel ran out when fuel pump turned on. 
(so, educated guess that this confirms the feed from the tank to the fuel pump.)

Here is the strange part.  Now I can't seem to get fuel from the IP to the injector lines.  Tried about 10 cranks of 15-20 seconds each.  I should have fuel at the IP, and the pump worked the other day.  Fuel pump gets hot (still able to touch it, but pretty warm).  Will try again after dinner to get fuel to the injectors with fuel pump connected to the gas can.

Open item:  have not disconnected the return fuel line to see if this is perhaps causing some "back pressure"... might add that to the mix tonight.

[ja17]

You need to do lots of cranking at full throttle to fill those big long injector lines. I would remove the plugs again if you had the injection lines open. Then crank until the lines are filled. The electric fuel pump should be below the fuel supply. It is gravity feed. It should not blow a fuse.

[jf308]

Later PM Update.  

Very frustrated...Tank definitely still restricted.  Unclamp the output hose and fuel just trickles.  ANYONE HAVE A GOOD SOURCE FOR A NEW TANK (which doesn't cost $1000)?  I think this one is toast.

Current situation:
Definitely fuel at the IP (19mm input line).
Cranking, cranking tonight -  no fuel delivery to the injectors and I know that the IP is good as it was worked and reinstalled over the weekend and fuel pumped.

Ancillary issue:  The wires to the starter relay (I think that is what this is) - black rectangular box mounted on passenger side engine bay wall- AND the wires underneath the alternator get very hot quickly.  After two or three 20 second cranking sessions (with plugs still in) they actually smoke a bit.

What would cause that?

Tomorrow's plan:  
Keep the tank outlet disconnected.  Raise the gas can to above the fuel pump.  Try to enhance gravity feed.
Remove plugs, and crank away.  See if I can get fuel to the injector lines.
I May remove the fuel return to the tank.  That is probably restricted again, too.
If all looks positive.  Try to start the car off the gas can.

SIGH.

[ja17]

Be careful of sparks around all that gasoline!

[jf308]

Bit the (expensive) bullet and purchased a brand new tank this AM.....although I found a local radiator shop who would boil, clean and re-seal I decided not to go that route.  With my luck I would be always looking over my shoulder waiting for something to clog the line and strand me.  LOL

Will run the engine/test the pumps on a 5 gal can until new tank arrives.

John

[Jonny B]

I don't think you will be disappointed. With the work being done on my 250 SL (after the hit and run in the rear) we went with a new tank. Old one was waaaayyy heavier and most likely hid some sins (heaven knows we found enough other ones to compensate). Pricey yes, but you should not have to worry about this at all again.

[jf308]

Happiness is a new OEM Fuel Tank, fuel sender and drain plug/filter screen.  Arrived late this afternoon.  Installation tomorrow AM, and then on to see if I can wake her from a 15 year storage slumber.  Can't wait for the first drive in 15 years !

My wallet is stinging a bit ,,, nearly $1500 total, but I just didn't want to deal with boiling/clean out/re-seal.... or cutting the tank in half and re-welding.
Too bad.  Looks to be a pretty "new" tank from its external condition.  15 years with stale fuel, inside rust, etc didn't fare too well.

[jf308]

Tuesday afternoon.  Partial "Woo Hoo".

Install New OEM Fuel Tank. Check.
7.5 gals fuel. Check
Run fuel pump, turn engine over...check fuel exiting Injection Pump.  CHECK.
Crank away, many, many times to fill injector lines.  Check for fuel at injectors.  Cyl's 3 - 6 show fuel.  Cyls 1 & 2 being stubborn.
(we know the IP is operational as all the pistons and the rack were free).

Decided after an hour or so just to connect the spark plugs and distributor and try to start her up.  Figuring that the pump might need more RPM's/revolutions to get the fuel going.

FIRED RIGHT UP, IDLED FINE.   TOOK FOR A SPIN AROUND THE BLOCK.    BRAKES SOFT BUT WORKING OK.  VERY EXCITED.
DROVE FOR ABOUT A MILE

AND THEN IT DIED.

Had gas.
Checked #4 fuse.  BLOWN.
Replaced the fuse.   Checked the fuel pump.  It was running.  You could hear it, but it was HOT to the touch.

Car would not start again without starter fluid.

Decided to let pump cool, and try in a bit.

Something not quite right with the fuse/fuel pump, I am guessing.

[Bonnyboy]

What pressure is your fuel pump putting out fuel?  Check the archives - there should be lots of posts .. but you need enough pressure as well as volume.   I used a sprinkler water guage to test my pressure and found I didn't have enough.  I had similar symptoms even after a clean tank.

[BaronYoungman]

If the fuel pump isn't getting gas, which cools it, it will overheat!
Bob

[jf308]

New tank.  New lines to the pump. 

Have tested the flow (without any pressure directly into a catch can) and it appears to flow nicely -- but I have not confirmed the output pressure.

Will borrow a pressure gauge from my mechanic and see.

Strange behavior was that it DID RUN for about 10 minutes around the neighborhood.  Then bucked a bit, blew the fuse (or visa versa) and then died.  Had to run it on starter fluid to get it back the 200 feet to my garage after it died.  Luckily it was just near my home.

Thanks for any other ideas. 

[jf308]

UPDATE: Wed. Oct 15  7:30 AM

Removed fuel filler cap just in case there was a vacuum.

Tried to start it on its own.  Ran pump for 15 seconds.  Cranked for 15 seconds.  Did not sound like it would fire.

Two squirts of starter fluid.  Fired right up.  Idled at 1200 for about two minutes then Died.

Re-Try to start on its own.  Tried to catch, but nothing.

Starter fluid runs for seconds until fluid exhausted and dies.

Pump temperature is still cool. Not over heated.


Grabbing another cup of coffee and will head back out there.  


8:30 AM.

Almost fired up on its own.

With starter fluid, and gas pedal depressed 1/4 -- Fired up.  Idled (albeit a bit rough) at 1200 - 1500 for several minutes.   When I let it idle unattended it died and then would not restart again.
Letting it sit (again) and try later.  Will see if I can get it to warm up and run for more than a few minutes. 

Maybe its not fuel, but timing/dwell/etc.

If I can get it to run for 5-10 minutes, I could get it to my mechanic 2 miles away to help.   :-)

[jf308]

Ah, "intermittent" issues.

Starts, won't start.  Runs, dies.

Pulled a couple plugs after the car ran for a couple moments this AM, expecting to see fouled plugs.  Dry as a bone.

Went to the rear of the car, pulled the output line from the fuel pump to add a pressure gauge to check flow and pressure.   Not a drop of fuel from the line.  DAMMIT.

Turned key on with output line to gas can catch basin.  NOTHING.  FUEL PUMP didn't make a sound.

Tapped it a few times.  NADA

Began to remove the protective shroud and it suddenly started to pump fuel.  I will double check the electrical wires, but have done that before and not an issue.

SIGH.    Looks like intermittent fuel pump failure.   UGH.

[Jordan]

John, I can feel your frustration and am amazed at your patience.  I would be pulling my hair out by now.

Have you checked your electrical connections to the fuel pump and also checked the condition of the wires.  Is it possible you are grounding out sometimes or losing the electrical connection.  Checked for any frayed/loose wires going to the pump and the connections at the pump itself.  The pump should always whine when its operating and you should be able to hear it while sitting in the drivers seat as you turn the ignition.

When the pump is running you can check volume by disconnecting the return line at the tank.  Stick it in a container and you should be getting I think 1-1 1/4 litres per 15 seconds.

[jf308]

Thanks Jordan

I will double check the wiring/connections, but believe them to be OK.  (I checked awhile ago when I did the flow test).

Bit another bullet and decided to order a new pump.  It would be just my luck to get down the road and have this fail on me....so I will install new tomorrow, and then have a fuel pump to
clean/restore and sell later.

Same for my spare injection pump.  I am just dying to get this car on the road -- and can't wait.

Its only money, right? and these cars are going up in value so a wise "investment". 

John