Purchase Opportunity Advice

[NorfolkJack]

Hello everyone,
I have been offered a '67 250 California Coupe for £23,000. It's an original UK registered 5 gear manual shift. It looks pretty decent - by no means concourse, but runs nicely, has everything in the right place, not a mammoth mileage and no rust. And I like the idea of a California Coupe, too - weather here in the UK isn't that conducive to a convertible, and I have two small kids that might leap out anyway, though I could possibly get some rear belts fitted (does any one know how straight forward this would be?). And while I wouldn't want to convert it to have a stowable roof - which sounds complicated and expensive - if I came across a cabriolet roof, I could presumably fit it as a removable, occasional ragtop, swapping it for the hardtop when I think the weather might suit. Does anyone have experience with this?
Anyway, the main thing I wanted to ask is what you experts think of the deal, assuming I'm right about the condition? With many of the same model going for plenty more, and Pagoda prices going up all the time (even with the less fancied cc and 250s), to my uneducated eye it looks a good one, but some expert views would be very much appreciated.
Many thanks,
Jack.

[GGR]

No rust is hard to believe on an original UK car. Many cars look good but have been repainted years ago over rust. The best would be for you to have the car inspected (especially floor pans, sills and chassis rails) by someone who knows these cars.

Original 5 speed on these cars is very rare. Make sure it is effectively a 5 speed as sometimes worn bushings can give the impression of a 5th speed when playing with the lever. If it's indeed a 5 speed, make sure it is a ZF from factory, not a later transplant with another transmission (not that it would be a bad thing, but value would be less than if an original ZF).

If the car is as you describe, rust free and with a factory 5 speed, then I think £23,000 is quite a good deal for a RHD on the UK market.

[Jonny B]

I don't believe you will be able to use a cabriolet top on the Cal coupe. The structure is quite different.

As GGR points out, have someone that knows these cars (the underneath parts for sure) to have a look. The tin worm can hide in all kinds of places and these cars are of the 60 and early 70's and rust protection was not really in the lexicon.

[NorfolkJack]

When I say no rust, I should probably say no structural rust. There is some surface deterioration to the inner wheel arches, but no corrosion to the body - so far as I can see. The guy offering it is the local specialist and would be the one to get to inspect it, I guess, but of course he is also selling it. He does guarantee the car's solidity however. Then again, what will that count for a year down the line? Then again again, for £23,000 can you expect a completely faultless car?
As for the gearbox, I am finding out if it is a factory fitted ZF or not, but it is certainly 5 gears.
The car has not been used too much over it's lifetime - it's under 50k miles - and very little over the last 20 years, though it has been serviced and MOTd every year and passed its last with no advisories. It has also had a colour change in both body and interior colour. Presumably this drop the value?
Any further advice much appreciated!

[GGR]

If the change of color was done correctly (ie dash board repainted etc.) and if the colors are ones that were available when the car came out new, value may not be hurt too much.

You should have the car on a hoist and take pictures of the under carriage. Take several, from various angles. If you spot rusted areas, take detailed pictures. Take also pictures of the transmission.

Post the pictures here and people will tell you about the condition of the car.

 

[jameshoward]

If it is as you describe, it would be a bargain. I think, though, you must assume two things:

1. There is going to be rust. As a rule of thumb there will be four times more that you can see. If you can see rust, it would seem highly likely that there is structural rust. I would ignore everything the seller tells you, albeit politely, unless you have a personal reason to trust him.

2. The car has almost certainly gone at least once around the clock. It would not be sensible to assume the car has driven little more than on average 1000 miles pa.

You can add a soft top to a CA coupe. It's been done before, but to do it well would not be cheap. There is a guy in the UK (south) who makes replacement frames and is doing a coupe now, or was.

If you buy a coupe, you should note that securing it when you park it will be impossible. Plus you can't really tour in the UK for a week unless you take the hard top. I never use my hard top, but use my soft top a lot. However, for a 5 speed getrag, you should think carefully before passing on it.

[GGR]

However, for a 5 speed getrag, you should think carefully before passing on it.

5 speeds were ZF from factory. Some later non original conversions used the Getrag 265. Excellent transmission btw, nicer than the ZF.

[NorfolkJack]

I have some pictures of the car here. Any views much appreciated. These are sales:

[NorfolkJack]

As are these:

[NorfolkJack]

And here are some more details:

[NorfolkJack]

A few more:

[NorfolkJack]

And a few more:

[NorfolkJack]

As far as those pictures go, things look pretty okay to my uneducated eye. But these last two are the ones that slightly bother me.
I need to make a decision in the next day or two, and while I don't think I'll be able to arrange an inspection before then, I think I'll be able to negotiate taking it to an SL mechanic once I get it, and if things turn out to be unsatisfactory, return it to the vendor.
Any thoughts appreciated.

[JamesL]

Whereabouts in Norfolk are you??

A UK, RHD,  5 speed Cal Coupe 250 has to be as rare as hen's teeth if it's "matching numbers". Is it the preferred market option? No. Is it a rare car? Absolutely.
My car had no structural rust and has cost me north of £15k in remedial work . Would that car be worth north of £38k once done? I'd think so. If you put it back to "factory" it'd obviously cost you an arm and a leg with strip down (remedial work previously unseen) and rebuild), but with cars regularly advertised north of £75k now, you'd have to think (world going to hell in a handcart notwithstanding) you're likely to recover most of your costs regardless should you wish to sell asssuming the mechanics are in reasonable shape (eg you don't need an engine rebuild)

If you want to have it looked over relatively locally, Derrick Wells in Needham Market know the cars pretty well.

if you pass on the car, PM me. I may be interested... (can't believe I just typed that!)

Rear lap belts should be possible. Getting them made up is easy (Sue at FDTS can do that), the question is fitting points through the bulkhead into the boot. I have the sideways kinder seat and have one point through the trunk. You'd need three at last.

[NorfolkJack]

Hi James,
I'm not far from Fakenham when in Norfolk, and am in London the rest of the time. You?
I'm trying to ascertain whether or not the car is matching numbers and if the gearbox is the ZF. The car itself is located up near Middlesborough - quite a step and I'm doing most of this over email. I'd need to go and take a thorough look at it of course, but want to get as good an idea of what I should be looking for before I do so.
The seller is a Mercedes mechanic who looked after it for the previous owner, dating back to the respray and retrim 20 years ago. That previous owner got the current seller to service and Mot the car annually, up until 2008. It was last taxed in 2009, SORN since - the guy moved abroad. He came back earlier this year, took it to the same guy to be recommissioned, serviced and MOT'd, but then he moved abroad again, and sold it to the mechanic.
I agree with you that if the numbers match and the gearbox is the original 5 shift, it sounds like a steal. That's what made me come on here and ask about it. Too good to be true? Or is it simply that the California Coupe remains less desirable? That would suit me fine - a 2+2 is what I'm after. And  while it may not shoot up in value, hopefully it won't plummet either.
Good news about the seat belts - I'll look into it. And thanks, also, for the tips on local specialists.

[JamesL]

Middlesborough is not my neck of the weeds but there's a chap called Paul Jobling who's near Durham who may be able to look it over for you. I have his email address
Alternatively, Walter may be able to do it - http://www.classicmercedesbenz.co.uk/ - he's seen more rusty Mercs than most people!

I split time between Sth London and Fressingfield in north Suffolk!

[NorfolkJack]

No, the North East's not my geographical area of expertise, either. I see from a quick search that Paul Jobling is a regional officer for the MB Club. Have you been in touch with him? Would an intro be worth it? Or should I just write direct and explain the situation? I think it would certainly be worth my while getting in touch - he may even know the seller. He was a member of the club for 28 years, apparently.

I spent part of my childhood near Wherstead!

[GGR]

The car looks quite nice, and if it was refurbished 20 years ago, it held up quite well.

The trunk floor is superb. This is a known area for rust. If it's original, it's quite encouraging. If it was replaced, then you should expect some serious rust elsewhere on the chassis.

I don't know what is the issue with the back of the front right wheel well, but it doesn't match the condition of the trunk floor.

The seller is a mechanic and was a member of the MB club for a long time. He can't ignore the value of these cars on the UK market and the rarity of the factory 5 speed. There seem to be a slight mismatch between the described condition and equipment of the car and the asking price, given what it would be worth on the UK market.

I can't see well, but the engine bay seems to have been re-sprayed with some kind of undercoating. The side of the sills and trunk floor look really nice, indicating that they may have been replaced. So there was potentially a lot of work done on this car, including rust repairs. Nothing wrong with that, as long as it was done correctly. This is why you really need to have the car on a lift and have someone in the know inspect the floors, chassis rails etc. It is sometimes difficult to detect a poor patching job once covered by undercoating, but it may be possible to grasp some clues, like that front left wheel well for example.

Rust is really expensive to fix, so it will affect the value of the car.

Matching numbers is not as much of an issue on these MBs as it is on Jaguars for example. But if the engine was replaced, you have to make sure it was by the same one (displacement, compression ratio, camshaft etc.).

In terms of value, an original ZF 5 speed would be a big thing. And if it is, make sure the car came out of the factory with it. The data card will inform you on that. If the 5 speed option is there, it will be a real plus.  If it is not there, then you will be sure the 5 speed is a later modification.   

[jaymanek]

You will be able to tell a ZF box from a Getrag from where reverse is. On a getrag is up to the left next to first. On a ZF its down next to fourth.

A Cal Coupe is surely next to useless in the UK? Dont mean to be harsh but value is what someone will pay for it... and I dont beleive there will ever be a market for a RHD cali coupe?! Maybe in australia?

Here in the UK you cant go out for more than an hour without a sunny day turning miserable..

I am very surprised they sold any at all in the UK.

[NorfolkJack]

I think you're right, GGR - an expert inspection is definitely required.

I see your point, jaymanek, and possibly in terms of value and so investment potential, for the money there are better models and marques out there. Maybe you have some ideas on that score? In terms of usability, though, if you think of the California Coupe more as a 2+2 FHC - with the rarely used option of being a no head - is it not a practical option for the UK, especially with small children? My understanding of these cars is that reliability is one of their strong suits, thus making them a good, though pricey, option when it comes to classics of the era. Having said that, I am a novice when it comes to these cars of course.

What do others think?

[GGR]

Mercedes are among the most reliable cars of that era, when well sorted. Reliability and usability can even be improved easily with electronic ignition and a different rear end ratio, making it a nice and reliable car even for long distance trips in nowadays traffic. The 5 speed transmission may save you the rear end swap though. If you think of it as a FHC 2 + 2, it makes a lot of sense. It may depend on the use you are planning to have of it. On long distance, the hard top makes for a much more comfortable drive as noise is greatly reduced, especially at highway speed.

But then, what about a W111 Coupe? They are very elegant, offer same reliability, better comfort, and a sunroof is very nice on sunny days. Their value is starting to go up, so now would be the time to buy a nice one.

[Jonny B]

The expert up close and personal inspection is really what you need to have done. Take a look at my recent thread (Get to test insurance) after my car was hit in the back (just a small tap actually) we uncovered some rather, how shall we say, "dodgy" repair work done even before the car was put back together in the late 90's.

I agree that the 111 coupes are just wonderful and elegant cars. Be aware, they are from the same area as the Pagoda, and rust can lurk in them quite easily too, and can be a real pain, read that as many (dollars, pounds, euros) to set right.

[jaymanek]

There are many classic cars out there. I think if you want an investment you have to go for the more common cars generally..
One off's or different configurations (such as this one) can take a long time to sell in the event of you wanting to cash out of it.

A standard pagoda will sell easily and has a fairly trackable value as there are so many out there. They are a popular model. 

I went for a LHD example on purpose, as if and when I ever sell, I have the whole world (pretty much) as a market. UK buyers arent that cash rich at this time and I dont see that changing in the coming years.
Also UK cars are all, or have all been rusty. There are very few original UK cars out there.

If you want to invest in a sure fire bet, my advice would be a R107 V8 model. They are getting so hard to find and they are most definitely the most collectible SL.
They will soon be over 30K for tatty examples for sure. Again hard to find decent ones, but they are out there.

Im not too familiar with other marques of classic car but I see Jag E types as a fairly solid investment. Again, buy the model that everyone wants and find one without rust.

This pagoda in question has had work for sure. Some of those shots have me itching my imaginary beard.. some of it looks a bit "tarted up for sale".. but you have to look at these things up close and personal.

Good Luck.  Hope it works out

[NorfolkJack]

I absolutely see your point, jaymanek, about the best type to buy being the most desirable, and purposely choosing LHD is good thinking, but the affordability of the California Coupe coupled to its practicality (for me) makes it hard to ignore.

Something like a 220 is tempting, for just the reasons GGR mentions, but I like the neatness of the SL for driving in London, though doing that does make leaving the roof off untenable, of course - for weather and security. That's a trade off I'd be happy to make, however, if it means I can shift my 6 years olds around in it and get into smaller parking spaces.

I just heard back from the seller, by the way, and the car is a matching numbers example with the ZF 5 shift gearbox from factory. The plot thickens...

[Bonnyboy]

Why is the engine bay black - more checking necessary to make sure the fenders have not rusted through and been fixed up.