1964 230SL restoration in UK

[GGR]

Hello Scott,

the original undercoating tends to dry out and not stick completely to the metal anymore. Add cracks or porousness with age and moisture gets in between the undercoating and the metal, starting a rusting process that stays hidden. So it is very important to check very closely. My experience is the same as Andy's: where the undercoating was holding well, the metal under it was looking brand new. But I found surface rust where it was coming loose (this is a Texas car, considered "rust-free"). So I ended up leaving the undercoating in place where it was still OK (most of it) only addressing areas where it had come loose. Oil leaks can also make it come loose. I then coated all of it with POR 15 to seal it as a 40 year old undercoating has most chances to have become porous and let moisture through. Not fully original, but safe.

I also share Andy's point of view when it comes to stripping the car to bare metal. There are different opinions on this, but I am among the ones who believe that steel shouldn't be exposed unnecessarily for the reasons described by Andy (and because once exposed, the rust process starts immediately and no matter what some of it will be trapped under the primer and paint). On mine I only sanded to bare metal the areas in need of repair.

Nice job you're doing there, in any case!       

[Jonny B]

Thanks for the clarification on the undercoating. Yes, being careful and watchful is the key. Tim Kidder from KK Mfg did a demo some years back at PUB in Ohio, and showed a number of the places in the chassis where rust can show up (Joe had a car tilted on its side for Tim to use for Show and Tell!).

As far as color change and such, there has been much written on the site about that. The market for these cars is not quite as finicky as the American muscle car crowd. If you do the color change, be sure to do all the places, i.e.,the dash etc. The search function can provide you with the various opinions voiced.

At the end of the day, it is your car, and only you can decide how you want to proceed, or what the goal is for the car. The posting will give you insights on all sides of the question.

[Scottcorvette]

I painted the bare steel body section with kurust to protect the metal whilst the car is being worked on. I need to try and find if there is a suitable product to paint on the aluminium to protect it from oxidisation and that is easy to remove when the car is ready for paint. I suppose it will be around 8-10 months before the car goes to the painter so I guess it will need something. Maybe the bodywork will go a bit faster but that is the timescale I have in mind.

I also took the valve cover off and cleaned the cam and oiled it all, I don't know if was remnant of steam cleaning or if it was rusty before as I couldn't get the valve cover off with the engine in the car. I suspect it is a bit of both as I had only had the engine running for short periods so there would have been a bit of condensation, but I would have expected the cam to be cleaner than this. There is a little bit of pitting on it but I cleaned it pretty well and will assess it further when the engine gets stripped. I sprayed everything with wd40, cleaned it all then poured engine oil over it all. My engine builder can't take it til March next year so it will have to sit a while. I have plenty to do anyway.

[Scottcorvette]

I removed the convertible top frame last night and will have a clean and a scrape in the storage bin ready for blasting. The lip of the drain channel around the storage bin looks messy, I can't imagine how it would have got bent out of shape like this but do they all look like this in there?

[andyburns]

Scott,

I wouldn't stress too much about trying to temporarily treat the alloy components.  Just let them oxidize and then just before painting them hit them with the scotch pads and knock off the top layer of oxide.  The important thing with alloy is to ensure that just prior to applying the paint you have removed the oxide.  The advice I took was that you should try and paint within a couple of hours of this process.  I think it only took me 2 or so hours to scotch it off inside and out.  Important thing is to not paint on top of a heavy layer of oxide or it will likely separate in years to come. 

I think if you painted it with a temporary cover you would have even a bigger job trying to remove it for final paint.  Alloy is pretty good at protecting itself short term.

I painted mine with a special epoxy 2k primer formulated for alloy.

[Jonny B]

Can only guess that the soft top storage seal that fits in that channel has been changed several times over the life of the car, and that it was removed with less than optimal care. I changed the one in my 280 SL about a year ago, and it was a pain in the butt to get it out, but I tried to do it with minimal denting of the channel.

[Scottcorvette]

Ok that explains it. I didn't realise a seal pushed in there, I thought it was just a gutter.

Thanks for that, I'll tap it back into shape then.

[andyburns]

Scott,  Have a good hard look at the gutter as its really prone to rusting out.  Get a little mirror and look at the underside of it.   Also a good thing to do is a trial fit up of a new OEM seal to make sure everything is ok.  Eventually you will definitely need one so may as well have it now.  If the gutter needs work then its better to do it now than after the fresh paint has gone on.   I made this mistake and its cost me.

I am wondering if the the out of shape gutter on your car is where fresh metal has been welded in and then bent because the seal didn't fit too well. 

[Paul & Dolly]

Scott,

Best to buy the OEM seal, and also read up in the Technical Manual here, about protecting it with plastic/laminate ect when lowering and raising folding the soft top.

Paul

[Jonny B]

I will absolutely concur on getting the proper OEM seal for the soft top case seal. It may be a bit more cost, but the fit, and all the little channels and grooves are what you want to have in place.

[Scottcorvette]

I don't think the channel has been replaced/repaired although I will look a bit harder. I haven't seen any evidence of any previous welding at all on the car, save for one door hinge mounting on the door, and that looks to have been done very nicely, the only other repairs I have seen are a couple of bits of brazing on the bottom of the headlight bowl, and a little on the front valence which you will see on earlier pictures after I stripped the paint, so as far as I can see the car is untouched in that respect.

I too have read about using OEM seals, and this is something I plan to do. I am a bit unsure at the moment where to buy parts from, I spoke to the local MB agent and they can get me quite a bit, it's just knowing what to get, for example I will need a new tail light panel, do I get this from MB or aftermarket, I suspect that the part supplied by MB may well be the same part as the aftermarket suppliers? Or do Mercedes actually make these panels?

Certainly in the Corvette world there is a huge disparity in quality from one manufacturer to the other, we wont touch Ecklers parts for example. I'm hoping that these very expensive parts will fit a lot better than the repro stuff I am used to. The Mustang parts were even worse, I had to replace the doors on my fastback and they were completely different sid eto side. I spent weeks adding metal to the door edges to make the gaps come right. That's one blessing with the Mercedes, the gaps are all very nice to start with and none of those panels need replacing.

I will have the sandblaster go over all of the areas I haven't stripped so he will do that channel, the soft top bin, floors inside and out, windscreen frame etc etc so if there is any rust lurking in those areas it will show itself.

It is also good advice to prefit everything before the car goes to the painter, I do that as a matter of course on all the cars we work on to save any heartache after the car is painted.

[JamesL]

Scott
For bits, try the MB dealership (Jacskons) in Poole
Best classic merc parts in the dealer network - Shaun is yer man
http://www.mercedes-benzofpoole.co.uk/content/united-kingdom/retail-sandown/mercedes-benz-of-poole/en/desktop/passenger-cars/service-repair/mercedes-benz-classic-parts.html

Stickandrudderman on here also has some parts in stock. Worth a call for unusual items.

[KevinC]

Scott,

If the fenders currently do not have the headlight bezel alignment notches, this may be a good time to work them in.

Kevin

[Scottcorvette]

Yes that is certainly my intention. There is a trace of them but certainly not very pronounced. I take it these were on cars right from the start of production and not something that developed? I had a look at the motoring investment website, and when I was at the NEC classic car show last year I tried to look at a few, the fender notches I saw on cars there varied quite dramatically.

I took a closer look at my soft top channel, and it has never had work done, so I guess someone was a little heavy handed as suggested. I tried carefully to remove to decal on the side of the soft top bin but a corner broke, I still have it all so am hoping it will clean and look ok when reinstalled.

I also looked at the chromeshraub website and it looked on there like all the soft top bin latch hardware should be gold cad plate? Mine was black so I guess someone has been in there with a rattle can, the decal had overspray on it so wouldn't be surprised. I'd like to make the car correct, but I don't want to turn it into something unusable.

The chrome on my soft top frame will need to be redone too, this looks to me like it was only a dull chrome finish, not bright chrome?

[Larry & Norma]

A rub over with very fine wire wool can work wonders with the soft top chrome.

[mbzse]

.../.. it looked on there like all the soft top bin latch hardware should be gold cad plate? Mine was black .../...

Black is okay and original. The repro parts offered today come in a yellow plated finish - to be sprayed black if you or the restorer chooses to "go original"
/Hans in Sweden
.

[Scottcorvette]

So the black is correct then?

The chrome on the bulk of the soft top frame would clean, unfortunately there are a few spots all over it that wont so it will need to be redone. I will talk to my plater about it and get his input. It looks to me like it was never bright chrome like on all the rest of the trim, but a matt finish, more of a flashover.

When I bought the car, as well as doing 'man maths' to make it all come right in my head, and rationalize the purchase, I also told myself that all the chrome on the car 'just needed a bit of wire wool', that's also what I told Ronni (in my head it was true!) and when the car arrived it was clearly a very different story.......Fortunately she is a very experienced restorer so knows what it is all about, having served her apprenticeship with her father restoring Spitfire aircraft, and then having worked with me the last 10 years or so, so I didn't get in trouble.

The fact of the matter is though that the more I do to the car, the nicer everything else has to be, you can't put less than perfect trim back on a freshly painted car etc etc, so everything has to be right.

[Scottcorvette]

A little bit more progress, I have a young guy work part time for me and I set him to work on stripping the inside of the doors. Seeing as it is likely that I will be changing the colour of this car I want to eliminate all traces of maroon. I hate when you take a door panel off and the door is a different colour inside to the rest of the car.

We also removed the rear deck and stripped the rest of that and the inside. I'll take the doors off the car today and strip the front edges by the hinges, then steam clean the doors and deck inside to make sure that all traces of stripper is gone.

We have also scraped the sound deadener material from the inside of the soft top bin as it was in pretty poor shape. The metal underneath is good though.

Next stage is to remove the bonnet and boot lid and strip the inside of those. I will need to make sure I can get a replacement for the original tyre pressure decal as I don't think I will be able to save it. It has already been masked round once. Same goes for the diamond pattern sound deadener on the trunk floor. If I can't get a replacement then I'll leave it in situ and paint round it. I'd prefer to replace it though. I'm assuming the trunk floor would have been painted then the sound deadener applied?

[Scottcorvette]

There is also the latest video update here for anyone interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoGW3HzrYDI&feature=youtu.be

[andyburns]

Scott,

Awesome progress.  I think you have a very sound shell.  Probably quite a few envious members pawing over your photos and vids.  Really very little to do body wise by the looks.  Not many pagodas around with that little rust on original panel work.  You may have well stuck it very very lucky.

A few areas that you might want to look at.  My doors had several hairline cracks around key stress areas like the door pulls.  Easy to fix with the tig but a real pain if you find them after you paint.  I thought I could see one on the rear of your passengers door.  

Also a word of caution.  I noticed you still havn't stripped the paint off the B pillars.  The B pillars of your car are more than likely full of lead from the factory.  Whatever you do dont be tempted to pull it out.  Absolute nightmare to reinstate.  This was the factory adjustment to get the door gaps correct.

Love seeing your vids in particular please keep them coming.  Cant wait for the next installment.  I think you will have caught up with me within no time looking at your progress.



Also

[JamesL]

Wow!

[Garry]

Great photo of the inside of the door.  Never seen one clean like that.

[KevinC]

I hate when you take a door panel off and the door is a different colour inside to the rest of the car.

Scott...kudos to you for this statement.

Now to the group...is the inside of the soft top compartment black or Tief Dunkengrau (very dark grey) like the inside of the trunk?

[Scottcorvette]

Thanks fellas.

Andy, I was going to sandblast the rear door shuts originally but figured there may be lead in there so will hand strip those, I'll hand strip the bulk of the paint off the front door shuts too, same with the dash, so as not to warp any of it. Also I think the crack that you can see on the door is actually a piece of wire that is wrapped round the door that held a spring to return the door handle. I need to cut that off, the doors themselves are near perfect.

I finished stripping the paint off the doors yesterday so that's done. There are a couple of broken screws in the aluminium that I'll get Ronni to drill out for me, she is better at that sort of work than I am. Those doors are a lovely thing though eh! and so light!!

I must admit I really am getting a lot of pleasure from working on this car so far. When I was doing the Mustang every single thing I did uncovered more grief which is pretty soul destroying, and that is something I am not getting on this car - so far....

With regard stripping the inside of the doors, there was a lot of silicone sealer on the frame work where the door panels had been stuck on (really!) and the inside skin was covered in sticky residue from the sound deadener so there wasn't really much option but to strip them. The paint is coming off the car pretty easy so it's not an unpleasant task and will make the end result so much nicer.

[Scottcorvette]

With regard the colour of the decklid underneath. Mine sure looked like satin black to me, There was a lot of the original paint showing underneath. Same with the trunk, someone has repainted in there but I took the latch off yesterday and it really looks like black, I'll give it a clean and have another look in day light.

The paint is something that is really bothering me. I'm worrying about how to finish the floorpan, the interior metalwork, the engine bay, trunk lid etc etc.

For example on the picture below it is pretty clear that the car was originally maroon, then I think was painted silver, then red. But on the hinge the red goes straight over the maroon, but there is silver under the head of the bolts...The silver showing on the hinge is the plating. I found no silver paint on the hinges, doors, anywhere. The only place i have found silver is on the windscreen frame and on the inside of the body where there are chrome cappings, everywhere else has red straight on top of maroon.

So my question is did the factory paint silver the areas where the chrome was, eg tops of b pillars, windscreen frame etc?? Also should the door check strap be body colour or bare?