Tire Nirvana!

[TR]

Mike -- I have been looking long & hard for a new, and great, set of tires for my '71 signal red SL.  I see it has been a few months since you last posted about your new set of Cokers.  Are you still happy with that choice?

I went to the Coker website...is this the tire you're talking about?:  http://www.coker.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17493&cat=&page=1

Like you I've also just had all of the suspension replaced (haven't even driven the car yet though) and it would be great to now match the right tire with that fully restored suspension.  Besides, I'd also like to return to the 3/4 inch white walls that came with the car originally.

Thanks in advance for your comments.

Tom in Boise

[mdsalemi]

Hello Tom,

Yes I still love the tires.  I did some hard driving just 2 weeks ago and still love them.  Find some earlier posts of mine, I think I took some pix of the tires back in August and posted them, so you can see how they look on a Signal Red 1969.  Keep in mind that Tom Sargeant didn't like these tires.  However my suspension has not been "modified", just rebuilt with all new parts.  Tom has improved his with different bushings, progressive rate springs, and he just may have a different feel for what he likes.  I drove his car, though and it is dandy.

Be careful however--if you have steel wheels.  See my posts regarding the Hunter GSP9700 Road Force balancing machine.  I'd make certain that all your wheels are 100%.  My guess is you might find a few out of spec.  I think I've got 4 good wheels now out of 7!  That's critical.

The Coker website was down when I went to verify your link, but the tire is sold as their 185R14 Phoenix 3/4WW, and costs $167.00 each.  One of the 4 I bought was out of spec; they exchanged it; paid for another balancing and refunded my shipping costs as well.  Can't get any better then that.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[TR]

Thanks Mike -- Interesting that the Coker site is not responding now.  After posting that link last night I checked it from here on the Forum page, and it worked ... so it may come back soon.

I've noticed mention of Tom Sargeant in this thread; sounds like an impressive guy.  In a post dated Sept. 16th (below) I even saw some photos taken at his farm of original Continentals that came on some of these cars, including mine.  My car came originally with Continental radials, 185HR14's, TT 714 tube-types, with 3/4 inch white walls (I still have one of the originals ... a used spare).

Have you, or anyone else out there, ever heard of these Continentals being redone (but hopefully now in tubeless), as are the Firestone's from Coker?

Thanks.

Tom in Boise

[andy]

i had a set of coker tyres put on my car before importing it,they have now been on just over a year,and my only complaint is that the white band on two of the tyres has gone a brownish colour as if the black of the tyre is bleeding through.it isnt down to road use as i have only covered 200 dry miles in the last year,i have read posts on stuff to put on to make them white again,but the point is should it have happend?,and as the car is now in spain theres not alot i can do.and as you know they are not cheap.
i will try to attatch a photo as my car is also signal red ,and you can get an idea how they will look{when new}.
anybody else had this problem?
andy.
spain.

[mdsalemi]

Hi Tom,

Yes, Tom Sargeant is an impresive guy, and not only because he has 3 113's in varying conditions and part of varying projects.  Perhaps if you consider venturing to Joe Alexander's in July (another impressive guy) you'll meet him.

As for tires, Continental and Firestone (German Firestone was called Phoenix) I believe were second-sourced; meaning that DBAG did not want to rely on a sole supplier for the tires for this car (and any others that may have used it).  Thus they were somewhat interchangable; some cars had one, some the other.

Coker is one of the few people that reproduce tires; they don't actually manufacture them, but they are made for them in Mexico and other places in Michelin certified factories.  Want a white-rubber tire for that spoked wooded wheen for your 1909 Buick?  Coker's got em.  You get the idea.

The Coker only has the name Phoenix on it--not Coker, and not Firestone.  I don't believe there would be any significant difference between that and a repro of the Conti RA60.  There could not have been much of a difference between the two as they were somewhat interchangable on the car; and a reproduction would be unlikely to carry the Conti name.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Mike Hughes]

I can also say that I am still pleased with the Coker "Phoenix" tires.  I've put a little over 500 miles on them and the car tracks and handles well.  The only complaint I would register is that they "flat spot" fairly noticeably when parked for any time.  It takes about 10 miles for them to work the "flat spots" out and then they are fine.  I have not noticed the "browning" of the white walls but now will check them carefully for this.

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

[hauser]

I've read that products such as Armor-All will cause brownig/discoloration of the WW.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[andy]

hauser.
that product amor-all sounds like something that is put on to protect the tyre,or is it in the rubber?.whats strange is its only happend on two of the tyres.the spare is i think the original phoneix,and the band is perfectly white after 34 years.
thanks
andy
spain

[TR]

Guys -- This is all good info.  Thanks much.

Andy, I sure hope you will be able to get those white walls cleaned up.  My guess is that discoloration of those Cokers doesn't do much for the appearance of your fine machine (great color too!).

Mike, I noticed the link to Coker website is operating again this morning:  http://www.coker.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17493&cat=&page=1

For those who may be interested I took the closest measurements I could from the orignal tire that came with my 71 280SL, as well as the tires I'm currently running.  Here's those comparitive dimensions (based on a carefully held tape measure):

ORIGINAL TIRE:  Continental Radial TT 714, 185HR14, 185-355, Tube Type, DOT 166 (with 3/4 inch white wall stripe).
-  Outer diameter:                        25 1/4"  (remaining tread: 1/4")
-  Overall width:  a) without rub strip: 7 5/8"; b) with rub strip: 7 15/16"
-  Tread width:    a) ground-touch tread: 5 7/8"; b) above ground notch: 6 9/16"
-  Approx. age 34 yrs.
Note: This Continental tire appears to be the same as those in the photos from the Tom Sargeant event: http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/280sl71/20031027203458_Curb-Rim.jpg

CURRENT TIRES:  Michelin MXV4, 205/70R14  95H
-  Outer diameter:                        24 9/16"  (remaining tread: 3/16")
-  Overall width:  8 3/8"
-  Tread witdth (ground touch): 6 5/8"
-  Approx. age: 10 yrs.

Mike I must say, the more I look at your signal-red 280SL (same as Andy's and mine) the more I like those 3/4 inch white walls on this car.  BTW did you notice from Ed Cave's posting of his car's original window sticker that the white walls for a '71 280SL were a $90 option?  (but the 4 upright bumper guards were $28, or $7 each; the chrome roof bars were $48 : http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/Ed%20Cave/2005110231240_71sticker.jpg )

               

[mdsalemi]

Gents,

One of my Coker's seems to have a little browning of the white wall.  Without much thought I assumed it to be the result of one or more of the tire shine products I may have sprayed on.  If you use those products, they tend to leach brown gunk off the tire and that is what is staining the WW.

Coker sells (of course) a WW cleaner which I should have bought but I didn't.  I had a heck of a time getting this blue varnish off the WW that they put on to protect the WW during shippin.  Even the detailer at the place that balanced the wheels for me couldn't get it off.  In spring I'll buy some of it.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[hauser]

Here's a great souce for info on keeping whitwalls their whitest.   www.widewhitewalltires.com  Once there just click on F.A.Q.s.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[TR]

Hauser -- Your link to Diamond Back Classic Radials was informative.

I am very impressed with the look of the 3/4" white walls on Mike's car...those Cokers look very nice in the photos he posted of his signal-red 280.  It would be important that the stripes actually stay white.

Has anyone here tried a set of tires from Diamond Back?

[Vince Canepa]

The Coker "Phoenix" does not have the same tread pattern as the original Firestone Phoenix.  Sometime fairly early Mercedes switched to Continentals, the same as shown in the photos in this thread.  My car had the Continentals with the ww when delivered.  I never saw anything but the Continentals on a new SL when they were on dealer lots from 1967 through 1971.  Therefore, I don't tnink the Phoenix is essential to the ride and handling.

I have tried several different tires in the 115,000 miles I driven my car.  The Continentals had been replaced with a Michelin ww when I bought it - they were so-so.  I replaced them with Semperits with a dog-bone pattern.  Some of the older members may remember these - they used to be a favorite of the Porsche folks.  They did not work on the SL - they chunked and I replaced them with Michelin XAS.  That was the absolute best tire my SL has ever had on it.  Superb grip, quiet in insanely hard cornering and a wonderful ride.  Michelin replaced the XAS with the XVS.  Not a good move for the SL.  I ran two sets of these and they were inferior - much noiser and much harder riding.  I finally gave up on the 185HR-14 because I could not find a good performance tire (the originals were a performance tire - not a long wear tire) and went to the Michelin MXV4 in a 205/70HR-14.  This is the size that gives the same diameter as the original 185HR-14.  They will scrape slightly if you are hard into a sharp turn under braking.  They were very close to the XAS in performance.  I had to replace them with Michelin MXV4 Energy's when I flat spotted the fronts when I was run off the road by a drunk passing a motor home on a country road.  Not bad, but I think the normal MXV4 was better.

The problem I see now is that there is no decent performance tire in normal production in either the 185HR-14 or 205/70HR-14 size anymore.  The only tire I consider an equivalent to what M-B originally intended for the car is the Coker Michelin XWX in the 205/70VR-14 size (at $380 apiece!).  This is not a ww.  The ww was always an option and most of the folks who bought their cars for their perfomance rather than their luxury characteristics did not get the ww.  One caution, Jim Villers has had some serious problems with Coker Michelins.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[Tom230sl]

I'm doing a complete resoration of a 65 230sl. Soon the car will be returning from the painter and we'll be installing the suspension. I need to decide what rubber to get. It's Black with Cognac interrior. The Coker Phoenix looks to be in white wall only. I always had black walls and never really considered WW. Anyone have any opinions/photos of WWs on a black 113? Do it once, do it right.

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by Tom230sl

 The Coker Phoenix looks to be in white wall only. I always had black walls and never really considered WW. Anyone have any opinions/photos of WWs on a black 113? Do it once, do it right.

Tom, at one time (if you didn't know this) some tires were only available in white wall.  Some clever engineer figured out that if you put the WW facing in, you have a blackwall tire.  Only good on symmetrical tires however...

But, there are plenty of fine tires available and most are in BW.  You can save a bundle by just getting one of the tires that people seem to like.  The Coker's are mainly suggested if you want WW.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[gugel]

Do the Coker tires have as pronounced a rub strip as the original Phoenix tires?  I've never seen the originals, but it looks like the Michelin XVS tires that were on my car when I got it do have a larger rub strip:

Download Attachment: XVSRubStrip.JPG
22.37 KB

I only had three of the Michelins and they were more than 10 years old, so for safety I replaced them with 205/70-TR14 Bridgestone Turanzas, which I'm happy with except that they have no rub strip at all.  (I don't normally drive over 190 km/h anyway).

Chris Earnest

[Mike Hughes]

I have not seen an original "Phoenix" for comparison, however I can say that the Coker reproductions do have a pronounced rub strip on the white wall side.  I had my 230SL into the dealer last week for its 78K "D" service and the tech (who remembers working on this car many years ago) was very excited to see the rub strip on my new tires.

I'll try post a picture soon. (Just have to get a good shot that clearly shows the rub strip!)

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by Mike Hughes

I have not seen an original "Phoenix" for comparison, however I can say that the Coker reproductions do have a pronounced rub strip on the white wall side.  I had my 230SL into the dealer last week for its 78K "D" service and the tech (who remembers working on this car many years ago) was very excited to see the rub strip on my new tires.

I'll try post a picture soon. (Just have to get a good shot that clearly shows the rub strip!)

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

This was posted once before:

Download Attachment: RubStrip.jpg
50.62 KB

It shows the Coker tire and rub strip as fitted to my car.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[andy]

i can send some pictures of an original firestone phoneix white wall complete with chalk lines,next to the coker white wall.buti cant seem to upload them.if anybody is interested contact me and i will mail them direct tomorrow,    andyandlyn@terra.es
andy
spain

[TR]

Andy -- Thanks for e-mailing the photo of that original Firestone Phoenix tire.  Good pics.  When I first saw your tread pattern I thought the tire might have actually been a Continental because it looks so similar to the original tire I have.  Upon closer examination though I saw the minor difference between your original Phoenix and my original Continental.  But what's weird is the picture of the tire that comes up on the Coker website ( http://www.coker.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=17493&cat=&page=1 ) has an obviously different tread pattern from either of our original tires.

[bjudd]

Any updates on the tire discussion after the summer months of driving?


thanks

bjudd
1969 280 SL 5 sp

[Jonny B]

I also purchased a set of the Coker tires this spring. After driving this summer, the biggest improvement was for cornering/handling. The ride was not that different(I replaced a set of original size tires that were well past their primg - sidewall cracks etc.). Since I have only used original size tires, I can't speak to any other points. But I have to admit I do like the look of the white walls and the rub strips.

Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto

[TheEngineer]

After reading this thread I had another look at my spare: It is marked:"Continental Super Record 6 PR Nylon - made in Germany- tubeless",has the raised rub strip and about a one inch wide white wall. There is no wear on the tire at all: It still has sort-of white paint bands on the running surface. I wonder if it came with the car originally or was installed later? The w/w is still white: Not brilliant white, but chalk white.

[Douglas]

Sounds like an original spare to me. Check your data card. It tells you which specific make of tire the car came with originally.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[TheEngineer]

Douglas:I looked at the data card, like you said: Option code 641

'69 280SL,Signal Red,007537,tired engineer, West-Seattle, WA