280SE3.5 Coupe buying advice

[Rodolfo]

Hi,

I am about two years on this site. I really appreciate the shared knowledge and friendship here.

A lot of help to examine a pagoda came from this.

Can I transpose this knowledge on the buying of a 280se3.5 coupe?
Like for instance the codes of the original options and original color written on a plate under the bonnet, are they as in a pagoda?

Same codes used there?

best regards, Rudy

[GGR]

The W111 Coupe is a superb car and among them the 3.5 is the best (in stock form). You may have noted there is a W111 section on this forum where you can post about these cars.

Another very well informed source is the M-100 Group here: http://www.m-100.co/ though the group is about M100 engine equipped cars, participants are usually very knowledgeable about Mercedes of that vintage in general.

If you read German you may also find good info on German websites.

I know these cars very well too so do not hesitate to ask.

I would think option codes were common, but I will let other confirm this.

[Marrs]

The simplest thing to do is maybe to obtain a copy of the data card for your car and see what options are listed. The Classic Center (Germany/US) can provide this to you if you send them your chassis number in an email. It actually makes their job easier too if you are an informed owner when it comes time to buy parts.

[Rodolfo]

I received some pictures of the car and the plates.

[Rodolfo]

some more:

Any impressions?
Should the plate with the 180G (so original silver) be painted? Or was that from a respray?


best regards, Rudy

[GGR]

197 is an early car in the series. Yes, the plate with option codes should be painted. Engine bay is quite clean. Leather looks original. Car seems to have been repainted.

These cars are still way more expensive to restore than their value on the market. So here too, the rule "buy the best you can afford" should apply.

What is the history of the car? Mileage? Work done on it?

Rust is your big enemy. Make sure the car is sound. You should see the car in person before buying.

[Rodolfo]

I saw the car in person. I also drove it for 10 miles. Superb drive. (engine very strong, good brakes, good suspension, etc..)
I didn't saw the underside of it yet. I will inspect it for rust and paint thickness probably next week.

History is there they say from 1988 on. Didn't check that yet as well.

Original French delivery.

It has not a lot of options: only factory airco. So no electrical windows or sunroof. Should that influence the price a lot to the downside?

Is asking for the datacard at Mercedes for free? Is it fast?

PS I can read German as well (and French and Dutch)

[GGR]

Yes, put it on a lift next time you see it. Also take a magnet with you. I can make you a list of areas to check if you need it.

less options is a good bargaining point. Though I personally prefer manual windows (less hassle) and the sunroof can be problematic as it lets water in.

I think you need to be the owner of the car to obtain the data card.

Where in France? South is better, less rust.

[Rodolfo]

Seems to be from Annecy region. So south but in the Alps (not so dry)

[GGR]

Indeed, then put it on a lift. Also ask if the car got some body work done. Areas to inspect for rust and/or rust repairs are:
- right behind the headlights on top of the front fenders,
- front valance behind the front bumper, left and right,
- hedge of the inner fenders where the fenders bolt on (difficult to see if it was repainted),
- front of the rockers behind the front wheels,
- windshield surround if the seal had gone bad at some point (water infiltrations),
- hedges of rear fenders around the wheels,
- wells on each side of the trunk behind the rear wheels,
- hedge of the trunk cover (back of it),
- front and rear passengers floors,
- If the car was really exposed to salt then chassis rails and trunk floor may also got rusted.
 

[Rodolfo]

Last weeks I am a lot busy comparing values of 111's.

The 300SEC W112 is more rare then the W111 280se3.5. According to Hagerty lately the 300SEC passed the value of the 280se3.5.

Any thoughts here?

Some people were reluctant because of the air suspension in the W112. Others say that the 300 straight six is better then the 280se3.5 V8 , because the first had a reliable mechanical injection and the latter had the first less reliable electronic injection?

For people who drove both: how do they compare enginewise? (I would prefer real experiences,  guessing we all can do ;-))

What about the W112 300 SE cabrio compared to the 280se3.5 cabrio?

Real life experiences and professionals value estimatiosn would be incredible appreciated.

best regards, Rudy

[GGR]

I've owned all three of them.

In my opinion the 300SE Coupe W112 is in another league. I put it up there with the W100 600 in terms of finish and mechanical sophistication (apart from the hydro power everything of the 600). But it is for the true enthusiasts who are not scared of mechanical sophistication. Both suspension and engine can be quite complicated and expensive to sort out. It is the most "noble" of the three In my view. On the long run I would also expect it to become the most valuable.

The 280 6 cylinders is the simplest and most reliable. If all you want is a good looking car without any mechanical hassle, then this is the one for you. Driving experience will be similar to the Pagoda, more comfortable, and the car is also bigger and a bit heavier.

The 3.5 is somehow an hybrid. It went through a facelift and it's engine, in my opinion, belongs to the next generation. It's a bit anachronic to see the D-jet EFI most popular in the early 70s in a car that was designed a decade earlier. The D-jet system can be troublesome, especially the trigger points, the Manifold Air Pressure sensor and the wiring which becomes brittle. After forty years these systems need to be gone through completely by someone who understands them. Once done, they are reliable. The 3.5 has the best performance of the three and is best adapted to nowadays traffic. I think it will always be more valuable than the 280 6 cylinders version.

In all three cases, buy the best you can afford, especially the 300.

[Rodolfo]

After some research I would conclude:

1) a 300SE would not be quicker or more refined then a late 280 SE low grille. Some say a 250 SE is not a lot less quick then a 300 SE and also quite refined interior.

2) a 220 SE would definitly be too slow, in most opinions

3) A 280 SE 3.5 low grille would have 20 % more power for only 60 kg more weight. But at double price of a 280 SE low grille.

4) But would the 280SE low grille ever gain in value?

As for now, I would opt for a 250SE cabrio or a 280 se low grille coupe. Is that coherent?

best regards, Rudy

[GGR]

Well, there are many ways to look into this, and a lot of it is quite subjective, so in the end it's very much a personal choice.

Regarding the 300SE: Though it looks the same as the W111 Coupes, it is technically a very different car. The M189 engine is the cousin of the one you find in the 300SL, But with an aluminum block. The air suspension also provides for a unique ride. The 300SE is technically much more refined than a 250 or a 280. That doesn't mean faster. But a different personality, a different sound and a different driving experience. One must be receptive to it though. Go on the M-100 Group forum. People there know these cars well as they share their suspension with the 600 and the 6.3. They will be of good advice. Also, before you take a decision, I would strongly recommend that you drive both a 300SE and a 280SE. That would be the best way for you to decide which one you like most. If, after driving it, you don't feel the 300SE is a special car, then don't buy one. The additional complication won't be justified for you.

As per a 250 Cabrio vs a 280 Coupe: I've owned several coupes and of course I've looked into buying a Cabrio. But something always held me back from doing it. I find the Coupe to be the most elegant of any Mercedes of that Era. Less so for the Cabrio. With the top down, the Cabrio looks like a big barge with a cushion on the trunk. I only like it's look with the top up, which does not make much sense for a Cabrio. And even with the top up, it is not as classy as the Coupe. My problem was solved when I realized that for the price of a Cabrio, I could own both a Pagoda and a Coupe. The Pagoda was designed as a convertible from the start, and it looks good with the top down. Not like the Cabrio which seems to have come as an after thought.

You already own a Pagoda, so a Coupe may be a good complement. A 3.5 would also be a different experience, as the 280's engine is very close the the one you have in your Pagoda. Again, driving one and compare would be the best way for you decide. 

As per values, I think the Coupes will go up. I think they have been under valued. They have started going up already, so now would be the time to buy one.

[Rodolfo]

Gael,

many thanks for your insights.

As a matter a fact the coupe is indeed much more nice then the cabriolet. The only advantage of the cabriolet 111 versus the 113 is the quality of the roof. With roof closed the 111 will still be a nice place to be, the 113 is not.

But you are right: I should stick to the coupe, as I have already a pagoda.

So leaves: a 280SE low grille, 300SE or 280se3.5.

What a hard life we have  ;-)

[capcgn]

The W112,  or 300 SE Coupe or Cabriolet are  very special cars. The suspension, brakes, engine are avant-garde and you can’t compare them to 250 or 280. The way the car is build is different, it was separate hand built by the best workers together with the 600. It has more soundproof, the best leather and more chrome. It drives more sophisticated and has more power and torque. Power is in between the 280 and the 3,5  ( Most 3,5 are USA Version with low compression engine 8,0:1 with only 180 PS and 26,5 kpm of torque) compare to 170 PS and 25,4 for the 300 SE. A well-tuned 300 is nearly as fast as a 280 SE 3,5 with the big difference of a much lighter front because the engine is smaller and made from Aluminum.
The car is more sportive and the ride is much more refined, plus the rear axle has an anti-dive system for the brakes.  So the car will not go up in the back while hard braking. To sort a W112 to perfection, it will take more money than to setup a 3.5. The W112 is produced in much much less numbers, The Cabriolet only 708x and the coupe 2419 x. The 300 sound more like a sport engine, it needs to be wormed up for a while, before fast driving. As a collector, the 300 is the way to go.  For a daily driver a 280 or better 3,5 is the car to go.  It’s like compare a BMW and an Alpina this days.

[GGR]

Coupe vs Cabrio: Another thing to consider is the sunroof which is a very nice thing to have on a Coupe. It's different than a complete top down, and I really enjoy it on my Coupe.

[Rodolfo]

In case of a 300SE: automatic is the way to go?

[GGR]

That's more a matter of personal taste. I usually prefer 6 cylinders with a manual transmission. I find automatics to be better with v8s. The 300SE is rarer with manual trans.

[capcgn]

The  better car is the better buy. To fix the 300 SE is very expensiv, if done rigth.  The prices for a 300 SE Coupe in nearly perfect condition  is now 120-150.000,-- USD or Euro ( price are now similar ) and  300.000-350.000,-- for the Cabriolet.
A nearly perfect 300 SE Cabriolet  ( seats and roof are not perfect ) has sold for 346.500,-- USD in January:
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1967-mercedes-benz-300-se-cabriolet-2/

[Rodolfo]

I drove a 300SE yesterday. Nice relaxing drive. Enough power. More relaxing power, then speeding power. The car is gracious.
The car itself was originally black and now it is midnight blue, so not original color. Also the interior color has changed. Good done, but not original color.
Not original, but now electrified windows. Upgraded airco (original Behr, but now with other compressor and good working).

The motor is also 20 years ago replaced. Correct type of motor, but not the matching.

Motor, automatic gear, brakes, pneumatic suspension all top.
The chrome around the windows to be redone. Bumpers and around lights chrome very good.

So a condition between 2 and 3 car?

What would be the value?

[capcgn]

If the paint is done in period correct color (inside and outside), I will say it is not a problem. The color change has to be done in the engine bay (engine out). The leather has to be in the original organic leather with the right thickness and the correct print. The shape of the seats has to be done perfect.  If all is done to perfection, I don’t see a minus in value. The 300 engine was always death at around 80-100.000 km and was done with an exchange of the engine in the Mercedes Workshops. So many engines are “Tauschaggregat”. Check the engine number; it has to be a Coupe or Cabrio number, not a Limousine engine.  If all this is good, the price will be by 30.000, -- for a medium Car to 130.000, --  for an nearly perfect car.

[JPMOSE]

I agree that a Cab isn't as pretty as the coupe!   But, I love driving with the top down in Atlanta!   I also have a w113 and R107.  Since they were designed as Roadsters, there is absolutely no cowl shake.  I find that at low speeds around 25 MPH, there is a slight cowl shake when looking at the rear view mirror...very slight though!!  The 3.5 is superb when it comes to power!  I bought NOS spares for my D-Jetronic components.  Mine is an earlier unit from 1970.  Some of the D-Jetronic parts are different, including the fuel pump.  I combed the Earth for a few parts and found them in places like Egypt and South Africa new.  Unlike the W113 and R107, a lot of the W111/112 parts are NLA...especially decorative parts!  The A/C knobs on the Behr unit were close to $400 each at the discount rate!!     Mine would be considered a 2 to 3 condition, yet it looks beautiful for the most part.  To me, 1 cars are only meant for shows and I like to drive mine and enjoy them!   This may sound strange, but I liked them better when they weren't worth so much.   I just love having them for enjoyment and find the value increase only drives up the cost of many spare parts.  I love W112 cars but find the maintenance and extreme costs of M189 parts to be overwhelming!!  The non 3.5 low grill are very desirable in the States...they seem to be climbing in value quite a bit.  I love the high grill look personally!   The grass is always greener on the other side!!  lol

I hope you find what you're looking for and enjoy it in good health! 

[wwheeler]

One thing that hasn't been talked about is that the interiors of the earlier cars typically have better appointments.

By this I mean - wood veneered instrument binnacle, solid chrome seat hinges (not covers), door panels are more sculpted looking, chrome rear view mirror (not black plastic), nicer horn pad and others. The 250SE and the 300SE has all of this and with the bigger engine from the 220SE. The other differenece on the early cars is the lack of US side markers which in my opinion hurt the clean classic look. That is only applicable to US delivered cars.  

These are small touches and may not be important to others. I am in the process of doing a reversable mod to my 280se coupe to change the leather binnacle to the wood. I LOVE the wood binnacle.

[Garry]

Wallace,

All those observations on the earlier cars equally apply to the Pagoda and it always amazes me that the preference goes to the later models with plastic everywhere instead of chrome.  Time will tell I guess.

Garry