Author Topic: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?  (Read 12018 times)

Clayton

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Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« on: January 20, 2015, 04:15:57 »
I am completely restoring the engine bay. I want to do it right. Is yellow zinc a good alternate?

Benz Dr.

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2015, 05:48:53 »
Sort of. I used zinc chromate for a while but found that the colour range was all over the place. Some was almost silver while some was very dark yellow and it would be different within the same run. This was a large commercial operation so they didn't have to be that fussy.
I changed over to a smaller specialty plating operation and the results have been much better going with yellow cad instead of zinc chromate. Color and brightness is show quality plus it's all the same regardless of when I've had any done, which is a big dead if you miss a few parts and have to do a second batch.
ZC is cheap compared to YC.   
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Clayton

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2015, 18:31:24 »
I really appreciate the input. I read the early forum discussions but, many were from 2007 ( technology changes). I am going with the cad. Just can't see going this far in a restoration and later wishing I had spent the extra $.

BaronYoungman

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2015, 20:01:56 »
The $ are crazy, I reciently paid $325.00 to have the fuel lines and a few misc parts cad plated, nice but wow.
Bob "Baron" Youngman
1971 280 SL silver  1 car 0 boxes
1983 500sec Wheeler Dealer AMG Widebody
1985 500sec Paris Autoshow AMG coupe
1994 320sl wifes car
1988 560sec  Japan "Yakuza Car"

mdsalemi

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2015, 20:56:09 »
Relative to a lot of other things on our cars, zinc or cadmium plating is a bargain. Part of that reason has to do with the fact that it is a batch process that doesn't require a lot of extra hand work like chromium which is all about the buffing and polishing. Zinc and cadmium are done in a barrel.

Cadmium is a bright bluish silver by nature, a bit brighter than zinc which is a a dull gray. Both get the yellow coloring in the same way--with a phosphate wash after the plating is done. That's a bit of a simplification but there's a lot of information available on the nature of the process on the internet. For those doubters who say "don't believe what you read on the internet" a lot of it is from technical journals, metallurgy magazines and related.

The yellow or gold color will vary greatly depending on a variety of factors. A former member here Bob Possel had a lot of cadmium plating done and wasn't satisified with some of the results; I've had good luck. The largest cost is in the initial batch. Each additional part is insignificant. That being said, it isn't like chrome where you pay by the part; what you want to do with zinc or cadmium is get a large batch all done at once.

The Cadmium will retain its appearance a lot longer than zinc. Contrary to some often repeated comments, there are plenty of places in the USA at least, that do cadmium plating. Just have to look. I've had it all done--zinc, cadmium, chrome...

Also there are some do it your self kits, and some members here have had great luck doing some yellow zinc by themselves. There's something to be said for being able to pull off a part on a Saturday morning, one part, plating it and having it ready shortly. However all this plating involves nasty chemicals, so pay attention to the safety instructions!  Wallace Wheeler? Want to weigh in on the DIY side?
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

wwheeler

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2015, 21:24:35 »
Make sure you understand the differenence between CAD and zinc plating as they are often confused. The look is similar. CAD is cadmium and is very toxic. Zinc is of course, zinc. Many shops do not do CAD plating because of the hazard. So because of that, CAD plating is at least 3X the cost of zinc.

So why spend the extra $$$??? CAD is way more durable than zinc. CAD also has very little build up when compared to zinc. This is important for tight fitting componenets and sometimes even nuts and bolts.

The color comes from the chromate. Can be yellow, black, and clear/blueish. Most hardware zinc plated bolts have the clear/blue chromate. The purpose of the chromate is to provide a protective coating for the plating. Not to look pretty! Zinc especially, but even CAD is susceptible to acid attack (coca cola or even your body oil). Yellow CAD is more dull than yellow zinc but more consistant. Yellow zinc as the doctor says varies dramatically.

I personally prefer the CAD because I don't want to replate parts again for a long time. Zinc (no matter what chromate) will not last as long as CAD. There is some debate when Mercedes drifted from CAD to zinc plating. I would say later in the 60's. But that is just my guess.  
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 00:42:29 by wwheeler »
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

wwheeler

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2015, 21:33:39 »
Just as I posted, I saw Micheal's response. Yes, I have a DIY Zinc kit. I have all three chromates (yellow, black and clear/blue). I like it because I because I like fiddling with that sort of thing and is cheap for very small runs. I get good results on some things and not so good results on others. For the ones that I know won't turn out, I send them to the plating shop.

The DIY kit has it's limitations. Good for small nut and bolts. And as Micheal said, it does have potentially dangerous components. You have to be careful and know what you are doing! They do not have a DIY CAD kit because the components are WAY too dangerous and toxic. There are shops that do CAD plating, but not everybody does.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 00:44:31 by wwheeler »
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

rutger kohler

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2015, 12:14:27 »
Interested to see others are using DIY kits.  I got sick of the variations on Zinc/passivate colour from the commercial guys so got an Aussie DIY kit.  I agree that it is very fiddly and you have to be quite exact however i don't agree the chemicals are hazardous.  The zinc bath has a ph of 4 that's mildly acidic, perhaps the worst in this kit is 20% sulphuric acid for stripping the old zinc off parts before re-plating, so yes you have to watch that part of the process.  There has been a long learning curve and a lot of frustration, but like Wallace I like having a crack. The parts have to be left for a long time to dry too.  Getting the current right is also an art (5VDC).

 The largest things I have done to date are the large clamps that hold the cooling reservoir on, for my 280SL, and yes I am having to do them again because I am not satisfied with the first effort, however I now  know what went wrong and am confident I will get them right next time. Small items like clamps for brake lines and electrical cables come up really well. Some of the high tensile bolts such as hex screw bolts don't seem to come up so well for some reason.

Large items such as injector lines and cooling pipes would be outside the scope of this kit.  I also have a kit for nickel plating which is a forerunner of chrome and nowhere near as toxic process.  Will be getting into this when time allows.
1969 280 SL Manual gear shift
1972 280SE 3.5 auto

Clayton

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2015, 12:54:30 »
Thanks for all the input. I am taking a load of parts next week to get the Cad. done. I'll keep you posted on the outcome.

mdsalemi

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2015, 15:25:16 »
The largest things I have done to date are the large clamps that hold the cooling reservoir on, for my 280SL, and yes I am having to do them again because I am not satisfied with the first effort

Not at your expense, but I'm laughing at this Rutger. You see, I had an issue with my clamps too. I was going to send them out, until I actually called Tom Hanson at the Classic Center. The new, OEM clamps (this was 2011) to hold the tank on were USD $4.25 each. Even Tom had to double check on that one. I quickly ordered the set.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

rutger kohler

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2015, 20:11:08 »
DAMN! Ok, well one more go and then I'm going to Tom,  amazing.

cheers

Rodger K
1969 280 SL Manual gear shift
1972 280SE 3.5 auto

rutger kohler

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2015, 20:14:01 »
One last question on the reservoir clips, were these originally gold or zinc finish?
1969 280 SL Manual gear shift
1972 280SE 3.5 auto

wwheeler

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2015, 21:00:34 »
Rodger,

I have a Caswell kit although the chemicals are universal and can be bought generically if you know what you need. Caswell has variable voltage/variable amperage rectifiers that allow you to change the amperage based on the number and size of the parts. Not cheap but it makes it so much easier. Not sure what power supply you are using?

The acid is the worst by far. I always keep repeating - add acid to water, add acid to water. If you do the opposite, it could erupt!

A note about plating springs including split lock washers. They can become brittle unless they are professionally treated to a hydrogen embrittlement proceedure. I don't think you can do that at home. I now always just use new split lock washers instead of plating the old ones. I have had several high stress lockwashers crack after being plated. Live and learn.
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

mdsalemi

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2015, 23:40:32 »
One last question on the reservoir clips, were these originally gold or zinc finish?

I believe they are a natural silver color. I think (and my memory could be failing me...) that when my car was restored the restorer had the clamps done in yellow zinc. It was pointed out that they were not yellow originally, so that's when I went about trying to solve the color issue. I was about to send them out (my issue was further complicated by the fact that I had two clamps that were not 100% identical--like one had been replaced) when I called the Classic center.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Jonny B

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2015, 17:38:42 »
I would concur with Michael, the clamps for the cooling reservoir should be natural silver.
Jonny B
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1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

Airbagman

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2015, 18:44:55 »
Hi there, I have done a nut and bolt restoration on my 230sl, I have a local chap who does the plating, I started out with CAD but found that on older cleaned up bolts etc, CAD tends to discolour faster than Yellow Zinc plating. If I had to do it again I would Zinc plate everything.

George

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2015, 03:30:44 »
The biggest job is cleaning all of the parts. We sand blast as much as we can and then each piece is polished by hand on a wire wheel.  This where all of the time is spent but when you show up the plater they will able to start on your stuff right away.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

mdsalemi

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2015, 14:32:44 »
Way too much work--this stuff needing zinc or cad plating or re-plating isn't chrome.

Old zinc/cad finishes are easily removed in mild acids or even caustics. Do a little search and the answers will appear. I suspect some relative mild muriatic acid (pool cleaner; hydrochloric acid) will remove plating quite quickly.

As for sandblasting that's too labor intensive. All these items can or should be tumbled instead with an appropriate abrasive. Set it and forget it. You can buy commercial tumblers, small--or use a small cheap cement mixer (you heard that right!)

There's all sorts of plans to make both rotary and vibratory tumblers. A small Harbor Freight cement mixer is just $140 before all their wacky coupons...so you can do the metal prep pretty inexpensively, and more importantly, without a lot of expensive and time-consuming hand labor. Let a machine do it unattended!

Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

m300cab

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Re: Cad. vs. yellow zinc?
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2015, 13:26:01 »
I cleaned each piece myself on a wire wheel then dropped them at the cadmium plating place in Reading Pa
Cleaning took a lot of time, but I was passionate about restoring my car to original
I actually have a box of nice looking spare cadmium plated parts, wondering when my next SL will come into my life...
Michael Parlato