Newbie needs sagely member help evaluating 280SL

[MBdude]

I am looking at a local 1969 280 SL for sale and I need some help establishing its value.
This car is not for sale on the open market and is owned by a family who has decided they would sell it to me if we can agree on a fair price.
I have known this family for 10 years so I want to establish a fair price, not a super deal for either party, just a fair arms length deal.
The car was sold new in Palo Alto California to an accountant who owned it for about a year or so.
The car comes with the original sales brochures and paperwork.
All the manuals and data sheets are in the plastic folder inside the spare tire cover pouch.
All the tools are perfect in the perfect pouch in the trunk in the perfect spare tire cover pouch.
He listed it for sale in a San Francisco newspaper in 1970.
The car comes with the classified listing clipping from the newspaper.
It was bought by the mother of my friends and she owned it her entire life thereafter.
The car comes with the transaction paperwork.
She loved the car and had it serviced every six months whether it needed it or not.
The car comes with all the maintenance records and receipts since she bought it.
The service manual includes all the service information since new stamped by the MB dealer.
If the maintenance receipts showed something needed done then the next invoice shows that work being done.
At 80,000 miles it overheated and ruined the engine.
It got a new 280SE/A head and a block that is stamped 130.983 ?0- 002617 (? = I am not sure if there was a digit or not)
I think this means it was a used block since it has a serial number stamped on it that is earlier than the car VIN serial number.
The invoice shows all new internal parts were installed in the head but doesn’t mention the block internals.
After that it accumulated a total of 108,000 miles (1999).
At the age of 91 she decided it was time to stop driving.
She gifted the car to her daughter and her husband who are friends of mine.
Shortly thereafter the daughter and husband took the car to an independent local MB repair shop to get checked out.
They serviced it and the invoice shows nothing else was needed.
The paint was wearing thin on the front fender tops because of a life time of frequent washingpolishing so they got the entire car repainted in the original colors.
They had the points ignition converted to electronic.
This was all in early year 2000.
Now the car shows about 110,000 miles or about 2000 miles in 15 years.
I downloaded and printed the inspection tips from the SL113 forum.
I took them when I went to inspect the car a few days ago.
I am a long time 66 year old hobby car restorer so I know a few things but I know little about specifics of these cars.
Here is what I found.
The body is perfect as is the 15 year old paint job.
All the chrome and trim was removed for the repaint and it looks beautiful, white with a maroon top.
No sign of any rust anywhere on the body or mechanicals.
Light patina and road grime in the engine compartment.
Beautiful chrome, stainless steel and anodized aluminum everywhere.
All the glass is nice but records show the windshield was replaced a long time ago.
The records show new calipers and pads at about 95k.
New tires 14 years ago in year 2000.
Lots of other maintenance replacement items along the way, radiator leaks, PS leaks, mufflers, brakes, belts, hoses,  etc.
The interior with MB Tex is perfect.
The door panels, dash, steering wheel, trim, carpeting look like new.
The gauges and dash chrome are perfect, absolutely beautiful.
The wood materials look their age but I wouldn’t consider refinishing them.
The car has a drivers mirror but no passenger mirror.
Four speed
No AC
Power steering
Power brakes
MB Tex as mentioned
Beautiful hubcaps, wheels and tires
Both tops
The hardtop has not been off for 10 years and according to the owner the soft top looked in “original serviceable” condition.  I did not look at it.
In 2000 a roof leak was detected so they had the head liner replaced along with all the roof weather striping
There are shoe scratches on the anodized aluminum door sill plates.
The car drives nice and smooth with no noticeable engine, brake, steering or suspension concerns.
The long handled ratchet tool is in the trunk.
All the pieces and parts mentioned in the website inspection tips were there except as follows:
The right and left side rubber U shaped bumpers where the hood meets the body are missing.
The center one is there
Other maintenance concerns:
The bottom of the oil pan is wet but there is nothing on the floor.
The transmission shifts OK but the **** lever is very sloppy so I suspect all the linkage bushings need replacement.
Original brake and clutch pedal pads are a little worn but not bad.
Two of the side reflectors are loose.
Final muffler is corroded through at the bottom and needs replaced.
First muffler has been replaced and the tail pipes look OK.
Passenger door weatherstripping is showing its age and needs replacement.
That’s it, a very beautiful car that has always been stored inside and has basically been a one family car most of its life.
The family showed me several photos taken when the car was new and was on trips through out its life.
When the car was gifted my friends commissioned a painting of the car that was given to their mother as a thank you.
The lifelong owner loved this car and the family wants it to go to someone that will keep it and not flip it.
They said this is more important than price.
The family are friends of mine so, like I said, I (we) need to establish a fair arms length value.
With the wild variation in asking prices we see on the internet it is difficult to determine what the car is worth is the current rising marketplace.
You guys are experts so bring it on and thank you for your comments.
I hope it is within my budget.

[dpreston Virginia]

Hagerty.com has some pretty good info on price trends. Worth a look.
Good luck

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

From your description I would estimate the value around $45K to $50K for this car, however, I may be totally wrong about this and recommend you take about 8 to 12 photos and post them here. I am certain once you do this quite a few forum members will give you a fair idea as to the estimated price.

While your description is very detailed, it cannot replace some good photographs to give you the reply you are looking for. Remember, one good photo may be worth a thousand words

Even I will revisit this thread and revise my estimate given above, once you posted some photos.

Good Luck!

[jpinet]

This seems like a good car with a good history!
You seem experienced, so if there is no rust issues, the rest is mechanics. Expensive mechanics, but all repairable/restorable.
I would be aware of the fact that the soft top has not been unfolded in 10 years. It is likely quite dry and wrinkled. I would definitely look at this, as it is an expensive fix. It cost me 2K to get my top fixed correctly by Gernold at SL Tech.
Also, budget for tires, The thread may look good, but they are not safe anymore as the rubber has dried. Shelf life for a tire is about 5 years, rolling or not.
Linkage bushings will take you 1 hour to replace.
280SL are getting up there in prices and 45K to 50K$ seems good for this car, but again, I have not seen it.
If it's a good as you describe it, you'll be making a wise investment and have fun driving it! Can't say that about money in the bank...
Post pictures!
Best of luck.
JP

[Bonnyboy]

 A friend of mine bought a similar condition car for $50,000 and just put $5,000 into it fixing up some small items.

[dseretakis]

If the car is as represented and runs I would value it higher than 50K. Sounds more like a 60-70K car especially since totally rust free and pristine interior. Have you guys seen the junk available in the 45-50K range?

[pj]

We all know that a car with issues priced nearly $50k is over-priced. We all know for $70k you should be able to find a decent car like this almost any time. I agree with a rough figure of $50k as the number that meets the stated requirement that it be fair to both buyer and seller.

The fact that it's not the original engine will hurt the value if you write up one of those puffed-up descriptions that we see in the big auctions. But if the engine is true and runs fine, it doesn't hurt the enjoyability of the car.

[MBdude]

Here are four photos of the car.
I had to reduce the file size to meet the forum requirements so most of the close up details are lost.
Thanks for your comments.

[MBdude]

four more photos

[MBdude]

last two photos

[49er]

Looks really nice and $50k seems low to me.

John

[Iconic]

I agree with 49er.
I will state it a little stronger.
$50k is low.
Experts should chime in, but even with the repaint, this car looks largely original and that is a big plus.
It might not be good news to you, MBdude, but that is one very nice and desirable Pagoda.
Two tone, 280, manual trans, original maroon soft-top....
That's original carpet and seats, correct. They look fantastic !
How much does the replacement engine hurt the value? I have no idea?
With a cleaning under the hood (I mean clean, not restore) isn't this car $75k to $90k ? Or does the engine compartment have to be pristine to get to that level? Maybe the engine replacement and under hood cosmetics would hold it to $65k or $70k ....
I always have trouble putting values on cars, this is no exception. 
Of course, I haven't seen it, but the pictures tell quite a story.
MBdude, I hope come to an agreement and you drive and enjoy it !!

[bogeyman]

It's really difficult to judge overall condition from pictures, but it is possible to see originality.
It is rare these days to see a car so unmolested as this one. That certainly adds value. An engine compartment with original paint. An interior with the original Tex and carpets. Gaps on doors and hood/trunk look good.
113s were seldom bought new as a collector car. They almost always were used as daily drivers, unlike later versions. Now, 50 years later, finding good original cars is a rare feat.
As to value, well that depends on a buyer and a seller at a particular point in time. Hard to assess from afar, but I will say that if I was offered this car today for $50K, it would not take me a second to agree.

[ctaylor738]

This looks like a really nice car.  It has some issues under the hood, like cheese slicer hose clamps, those awful red hoses, and an incorrect battery and bracket.  But stuff like that is easy to fix.  The original firewall pad in good condition is a big plus.

If Motoring Investments got ahold of the car, I am sure he would price it north of 100K and probably get it.  You might look at that website. 

Assuming an inspection didn't show any surprises, I would say "well bought" at 60K and "well sold" at 70K. 

Cheers,

CT

[Benz Dr.]

Originality is one thing but condition is another. Original cars can be complete turds and a beat up car can be great buy. I all depends on condition and that's where the real difference lies. I've never been able to spot every flaw in a 113 before purchase and I kind of know what to look for. It's not until I start working on a car that I can truly gauge its real value. I almost every case I came away with the notion that I probably paid too much for it.

Dealing with friends or family can be difficult.  Pay too much for it ( which you likely will ) and you go away with the feeling that the situation spelled out the results. Pay too little for it and the owners will feel cheated - maybe. This car is a bit different in that you have the service history. What you have is the history of what was done on the car but it fails to tell you everything that was done. Invoices usually don't go into a lot of detail. You may get an invoice that says ' bleed brake fluid. ''but it probably won't tell you about problem bleeder screws unless a caliper had to be replaced.  We remove all of the bleed screws, clean them, and then they're coated with anti seize. It won't say this on your invoice but it was still done.
Why are small things like this important? Well........once you've broken off a bleeder screw it might just ruin your whole weekend. This car comes from a nice dry environment so many of the usual problems won't beat you up but it will still have hidden ones just the same.

My point, if there is one, is that regardless of condition, there will be problems with the car and you will never see them all at time of purchase. Hedge your bets that there are problems and pay accordingly. It can take several thousand to go through a car and weed out any defects and you need to be aware of this. The better the condition, the less you should have to do - most of the time. If you plan on doing a full restoration then most of this advice won't apply in the same way because you would fix everything during those tear downs.

This car has been driven very little over the past decade which isn't a good thing. Don't pay too much for it. 70K?  No way on that........       

[stickandrudderman]

Excellent advice from Dr. Benz as usual.
I don't know the US market but here in the UK I would say that looks like a 50k car (UK pounds) tops, given that it is an excellent basis for a sympathetic nurturing back to full glory.
It is certainly a car worth owning (some are not) and certainly a car worth investing in.
I would guess that 50K (USD) is probably fair and the seller certainly shouldn't feel cheated and you will not have overpaid either.

[Iconic]

Now that we have heard from some experts, I will change my opinion.
Even though this car might be worth more if marketed, cleaned up a bit, etc, that was not your question.
You question was about a fair deal for both parties.
Your friends don't need top dollar from you.
So, given the non-original engine (which should not deter from the enjoyment of this really nice largely original car), and the other points that have been mentioned, the $50k USD makes good sense for both parties.
Tell us how the transaction goes !

[MBdude]

OK, the deal is done.
I am now the proud owner of a 1969 280SL.
Thank you to everyone for your advice, suggestions and recommendations.
The honeymoon is fading and reality is setting in.
If found a few things during my pre-purchase inspection that were considered in the final price.
Now I need to get on and fix them or leave alone as is.
First of all the received all the original keys, completely filled out manuals in the vinyl pouch, two metal ID plates in one of the manuals, original spare tire cover, hard top tools, original fuel cap, all receipts since new, sales brochures,
"For-Sale"newspaper listing and personal trip photos.
Finally something that really blew me away.
I found in the glove box a small notepad that listed every gas fill up since new.
It included the date of the fill up, mileage, any oil used and gas mileage since the last fill up from zero miles all the way up to 110,00 miles.
It was using a quart of oil quite frequently from new until the engine rebuild at 67K.
Since my last post here is what I found during my inspection:
Absolutely no rust anywhere..hurray!!
Paint and interior are near perfect with a few exceptions, console wood is a little worn, entry kick panels have some scratches and that is about it for visual wear.
I found an 8/2014 receipt for replacing the three fuel lines near the fuel pump near the fuel tank to fix a reported fuel leak.
When I put the car on the lift I discovered that the bottom of the fuel pump cover is damp but not dripping.
I have read about expensive fuel pump leaks and this has me concerned.
Might it be normal for the fuel pump to leak a little at first if the car has been sitting for a long time??
I hope so but I would like your comments on this potential expensive repair.
Final muffler looks to be at the end of its life since it looks to be corroding through on the bottom.
The trim around two of the side markers is coming loose and look to have broken tabs.
Where can I buy new ones?
An earlier reply mentioned the incorrect engine hoses and clamps.
What is correct and where can I get them?
The turn sign lever does not want to hold in the turn position every time.
I read about filing on the mechanism to correct this.
Any comments on this?
There is a pipe along the rear of the back inside of the trunk that I have read is a "long handled ratchet tool".
Can someone describe it so I know if this is it or not?
It just looks like a piece of pipe to me.
The soft top is in fair condition and would work in a rain storm but it looks like the original and has a few wear holes on two corners from being folded up for so many years.
The four speed shift lever is floppy and I need to replace some bushings as I have read.
Where can I buy a set of bushings?
The tires are brand new looking but don't even have a DOT date on them.
Good enough for slow speed cruising I guess.
There is a piece of shag carpet over the trunk mat that was placed there the day the car was delivered.
It looks tacky but I like it and will keep it there as a reminder of the original owners attention to caring for the car.
The hood strap has a 180 degree twist in it.
Should it have this or was it re-installed incorrectly after the respray?
When I accelerate at full throttle it starts to puke and miss about half way through the rev.
The gas is very very old so I hope this is the problem.
I plan on draining it out today and putting in fresh gas and some Sea Foam.
Two outer rectangular rubber clips on the ridge at the back of the engine bay are missing.
Where can I get these?
What is the radiator expansion tank overflow hose supposed to look like?
Mine is clear hose that is incorrect.
Bottom of engine and transmission is damp but that doesn't surprise me since the car has been sitting for a long time.
Hopefully that goes away but I am probably wishing too much.
As I mentioned before the engine overheated and was replaced at 67k
The head was noted on the receipt as new and has 280 SE A cast on it.
Was this correct or should they have put a head with 280SL cast on it?
The replacement short block is stamped 130.983 whiich means it was a 280SL block but has a serial number 002617 preceding the body VIN by 3,908.
Since the block has a serial number I understand this means it was a used short block out of a previously built car.
If it were to be a factory new block it would not have had a serial number....correct??
All the lights, radio Becker Europia and controls work perfectly
Suspension, brakes, steering all in good order

When I do a in internet search for parts suppliers I am surprised by how few I am finding that carry a lot of stuff.
How about some suggestions?
Thanks again for your comments.
You haven't heard the last from me!!

[49er]

 Hello Sid,
 Congratulations on your "new" car. I will take a stab at answering some of your questions and I am sure others who are way more knowledgeable will chime in as well.
First thing I would do is take a look for the data card (usually kept with the manuals) and look at our technical section to de cipher the codes. My card was pink and about the size of an old IBM card. If you don't have one, you can contact Tom Hansen at the MB Classic Center in Irvine CA, and he will send you a copy. Factory engine replacements didn't always come with a number stamped on it (mine is blank). The expansion tank did not have a hose connected to it, just the one coming up from the radiator. If the gas tank has been sitting for a long time, by all means clean it out before driving. Once crud gets into the FI pump you will have problems for sure. Authentic Classics http://www.authenticclassics.com/230SL-250SL-280SL-Convertible-113-Chassis-s/1.htm is a good place to start looking for parts. Still don't have a clue what that "pipe" in the trunk is you are referring too. if it is the ratchet handle for the jack, it should fit down in the worm screw and stowed under the spare tire. A picture would help.

Hope this helps and as I said, others will be adding their thoughts, suggestions

John

[pj]

Welcome! What a great story. Congratulations on joining us. Are you located in Idaho? Might be tough to get together but it's a great thought. (You might actually be closer to some of the members in western Canada than northern California.) I hope you will post in the "new member introductions" and tell us more about yourself. I really appreciate your willingness to lay out your observations and questions. That helps all of us, I think.

My overall impression is that you are fortunate to get this car. None of our business how much you actually paid, but your original post said it would be around $50k, and I wish I could have afforded to get a car like that 5 years ago. Because I have spent more than that improving my car since. I'm not complaining, just saying you should feel satisfied. And frankly, if you need to spend $5k or even $10k dealing with issues as "reality sets in," you will still be in a very good spot.

I hope you drive it a lot and share with us. Please post more photos as you go along.

[buspilot]

Hi MBdude,

I just joined this forum today, and was thrilled to see another owner in Idaho.  Congratulations on your new purchase!  I have a '66 Pagoda and live near you in the Eagle/Garden City area.  I bought my car on Tuesday the 3rd of March 2015 but haven't driven it more than 10 miles to get it home.  My Hagerty insurance binds on Sunday, so I plan to go for a drive Sunday morning.  

Your car sounds delightful, as does the rest of your fleet in your signature line.

--buspilot

[ja17]

"I found an 8/2014 receipt for replacing the three fuel lines near the fuel pump near the fuel tank to fix a reported fuel leak.
When I put the car on the lift I discovered that the bottom of the fuel pump cover is damp but not dripping."
I have read about expensive fuel pump leaks and this has me concerned.
Might it be normal for the fuel pump to leak a little at first if the car has been sitting for a long time??"

Find out where the leak is coming from first.


"Final muffler looks to be at the end of its life since it looks to be corroding through on the bottom."

New original exhaust systems are still available or you can get a stainless steel system for about the same price

"The trim around two of the side markers is coming loose and look to have broken tabs.
Where can I buy new ones?"
The side marker lights are available also. In addition, they were used on many sedan models of the era, so good used examples turn up on ebay or your local scrap yard from time to time. There are some minor differences (some with screw some without), slight difference in reflector etc. The lenses are the same on both sides but the bulb assemblies and rubber gasket is oriented to one sid or the other. Be careful not to get the earliest versions which were reflectors only (no lights or bulb assembly)

"An earlier reply mentioned the incorrect engine hoses and clamps".

Spend some time and search the subject or look in the Tech Manual, lots of information on this subject is already posted.

"What is correct and where can I get them?"

Many of the Vendors on this forum sell clamp kits or singles

"The turn sign lever does not want to hold in the turn position every time.
I read about filing on the mechanism to correct this.
Any comments on this?"

Fix can be complex, search it and read up to see if want to attempt it.

"There is a pipe along the rear of the back inside of the trunk that I have read is a "long handled ratchet tool".
Can someone describe it so I know if this is it or not?
It just looks like a piece of pipe to me."

Probably just a pipe.  The two piece jack is used in some pagodas. the ratcheting style handle is stored in the end of the jack

"The soft top is in fair condition and would work in a rain storm but it looks like the original and has a few wear holes on two corners from being folded up for so many years."

New original material tops are available, check the vendor list

"The four speed shift lever is floppy and I need to replace some bushings as I have read."

Also, check the vendor list, I suggest buying a kit with all the plastic bushings.

"There is a piece of shag carpet over the trunk mat that was placed there the day the car was delivered.
It looks tacky but I like it and will keep it there as a reminder of the original owners attention to caring for the car."
I suppose there is a mirrored disco ball hanging from the deck lid also 

"The hood strap has a 180 degree twist in it."


Should it have this or was it re-installed incorrectly after the respray?
When I accelerate at full throttle it starts to puke and miss about half way through the rev.
The gas is very very old so I hope this is the problem.
I plan on draining it out today and putting in fresh gas and some Sea Foam.
Two outer rectangular rubber clips on the ridge at the back of the engine bay are missing.
Where can I get these?
What is the radiator expansion tank overflow hose supposed to look like?
Mine is clear hose that is incorrect.
Bottom of engine and transmission is damp but that doesn't surprise me since the car has been sitting for a long time.
Hopefully that goes away but I am probably wishing too much.
As I mentioned before the engine overheated and was replaced at 67k
The head was noted on the receipt as new and has 280 SE A cast on it.
Was this correct or should they have put a head with 280SL cast on it?
The replacement short block is stamped 130.983 whiich means it was a 280SL block but has a serial number 002617 preceding the body VIN by 3,908.
Since the block has a serial number I understand this means it was a used short block out of a previously built car.
If it were to be a factory new block it would not have had a serial number....correct??
All the lights, radio Becker Europia and controls work perfectly
Suspension, brakes, steering all in good order

When I do a in internet search for parts suppliers I am surprised by how few I am finding that carry a lot of stuff.
How about some suggestions?
Thanks again for your comments.
You haven't heard the last from me!!


 

[MBdude]

Thanks for the numerous suggestions.
I still need some names of suppliers with authentic reproduction parts.
Not sure if MB suppliers are like Corvette or Chevelle suppliers because in those cases I have found that many times there is a big difference between original and reproduction.

[JamesL]

Congrats - hope the advice you got here helped you and the family reach a happy price!
There is rust in the car, you've just not looked hard enough for it yet - sorry!
So cool to have all that history, even down to the fill-ups. You should keep that going

As for parts - the tech manual suppliers list will point you in the right direction, and if you know what item you're after, use the search function on the forum for an idea of what other people have gone through/who they've used/how they got the part. However, we are lucky in that MANY parts are still available from the Classic Center in irvine Ca (Tom Hansen). The issue is that sometimes they cost a fortune, and other times far less (and more available) than that "rare" part you see advertised on ebay. And then you get the "how much time am I willing to spend to save $5?" question - clamps may be less money from a number of individual suppliers, but a set of clamps, or firewall grommets or whatever direct from MB may cost you a few $ more for a lot less hassle. The only truism I think we can all agree on is: Seals. Use MB

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

I like yourself was new to the Pagoda parts evaluation and found that when parts are needed one needs to be on guard. One can learn by making mistakes and paying good hard cash for it, then why should you do it when people here that have had similar issues in the past provide excellent help Let me tell you about a simple item that I needed and found it on the Internet only to be bitterly disappointed. Why, well I did not make my research properly and did not ask for help. The consequence was it cost me $60- US dollars.

Here is the story (I told it before, it's worth while to bring it to your attention).

My chrome ring around the ignishion key kept coming loose (it has 3 tabs to hold it in place one was broken off). One day when I pulled out the ignition key it somehow came out with it and was no longer to be found. So I found one on the Interned paid $50-US and $10-US for shipping. When I got it it was a used one re-chromed and full of pits and corrosion. One day I ordered some parts from the Classic Centre in California and while I was talking to Tom I mentioned this. He said Dieter I sell them new for $17.50 US ... yes you guessed it I added a new one to my order. Now I am very careful on this subject be it parts or maintenance.

Congratulations on the purchase you made and welcome to our Pagode SL Group

Below is a link I use here and then for part numbers, drawings etc. I translated the German link for you, you might like to use it for comparison prices (parts prices are shown in Euros).

German Link ----> http://www.sls-hh-shop.de/230-280SL-R113/

Translated (by Google) link --- > https://translate.google.ca/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sls-hh-shop.de%2F230-280SL-R113%2F&edit-text=