Opinions on mild to radical modifications

[n/a]

I've only been a member of this organization for a few weeks but I have enjoyed watching and participating in the interactions tremendously. It appears that through my membership and this forum, I have access to a highly knowledgeable and fairly open-minded group of people. As such, I would love to hear your opinions as to the level of interest you'd have in using the following modifications on your cars if they did not require cutting or otherwise unreversable changes. The target group would not necessarily include those of you who have pristine, show quality or museum quality cars, though all opinions are welcome.

Electronic distributor (no points)
Fully electronic fuel injection (cheaper, more reliable starts,EPA emissions compliant/more power)
Selective use of urethane,sway bars, progressive springs and wider tires (better handling, no harsh ride)
Readily available U.S. 5 speed transmission conversion (cheaper, lower revs)
Total U.S. V8 driveline retrofit with 5 speed manual or auto tranny.

I have been an MBCA member for many years and I've driven, worked on and generally been around these cars all my life. I would very much like to see many other people do the same for a long time going forward. I truly love these cars and would like to see them not only survive but thrive against the current emissions and parts overpricing threats that seem to be creeping up. Opinions of all kinds will be appreciated.





Mikey

[Tom]

Mikey,

My view is that enhancements to these cars that are discrete are preferred.  

Electronic Ignition can be hidden;
Electronic Fuel Injection cannot be hidden;
Progressive springs and poly bushings are not noticeable to the casual eye;
5 speed US modern transmission-noticeable
V8-Noticeable.

The drive train modifications will hurt the value of the car-mixing German and US mechanicals, IMHO, is bad form.

If you want to go modern but like the look, consider the Mechatronik conversion that uses all new Mercedes parts in the old chassis that is completely reversible.  A completely modern drive, modern A/C concealed behind the dash (no Frigiking hang down from the dash) and updated suspension (but still has the rear swing axle

Best,

Tom

_____________________________________________

1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (R & D)
_____________________________________________

[A Dalton]

My thoughts on Mods are basically upgrading to newer  technology that was not available at the time of manufacture, so you get updated performance without noticable change.
 The three biggies on my list are:
 
1-Point Conversion [ to your preference]
2-E code 7" halogen headlamp up-grade ..or.. if you already have Euro, up-grade from tungston to H4s with P45t base.
3- Tire size preference change .. [ seeing it is almost impossible to get 80 profile tires anymore]
 .. and for myself, I have found that an added cabin cold start switch [wired in parellel to existing /original circuit] is invaluable...
 So, with these hardly noticable changes , you wind up with a better starting, better running, better riding, 113 that is a way better treat to drive at Night...
..PS.. not a lot of $$$$ for what you get , either..

[Cees Klumper]

Modifications I've done for the sake of technical improvement:

- electronic ignition
- poly bushings at most points
- changed the 4.08 ratio rear-end to a 3.69

Basically that's all I will consider as far as improvements. With these, the car (to me) is fast enough, handles and stops well enough, and the high RPM's at highway speeds are something I just got used to. The injection system is reliable (once properly sorted), the transmission does its job fine, and the engine has plenty of 'go'.
Now I would enjoy building a rally (racing) car at some point, and going to town on whatever performance improvements could be made. But then that would be for a different purpose altogether. For normal, enjoyable driving, the basic car does just fine for me!

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[A Dalton]

Cees ,
 You may want to consider the lamp upgrade I mentioned ..
 The comparative difference is well worth doing..specially if you already have Euros..

[JamesL]

I'm going for the headlamp upgrade in a couple of weeks - after the MOT (our annual certificate of roadworthiness in which all sorts of things are checked including all the lights (and directions of them))

Have the electronic ignition

Have a changer in the trunk with the controller dropped way back under the dash. It runs through my Becker GP, into which i also have plugged a feed for my MP3 player

Got a little alarm to tell me when I am getting out with my lights left on

And am considering progressive shocks at some point

So in essence, no issues with using modern stuff to improve the car but as far as I am concerned, nothing fundamental. As Cees says, I can break the speed limit in my 280, I can get a smile on my face as it is, and I am doing nothing that alters the basic character of the car

That said, I think if I had the cash, I'd seriously consider the Mechatronik 320!

[Tom]

Tosh,

I too am considering the Mechatronik car.  I may send my R&D car over.  Problem of course is a source of funds to pay for that car!  I visited the plant/shop and it is quite impressive-stay tuned for the story in an upcoming Pagoda World issue.

Best,

Tom

_____________________________________________

1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (R & D)
_____________________________________________

[hauser]

The Mechatronic  A/C system would be great.   A kick ass sound system, hidden of course.   Anything that would make it better as long as you don't see it.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

[JamesL]

Ooohh Tom, I'm jealous

Can't wait for the article

[Malc]

I have no problem with "updating" a car, it would be a natural progression anyway.... However that said I have been to car shows where some folk "pooh pooh" cars that have been carefully modified/updated etc for not being original. I do think that that is abit sad. We should all appreciate each others opinions. Take to extreme you could say that the rallying Pagoda is not original because it was "modified"
Remember many cars when they first came out were modified for example
Minis - remember the Cooper?
MGA/MGB - 8 port heads could be fitted
Rover SD1 - British touring car championship
Triumph Dolomite sprint for stage rallying


Here's what I am up to right now

Rebuilding a 1974 BMW 3.0 Csi - rot with avengence :?

I have bought a 1986 BMW M535i, £600, basically for parts and I will basically swap over:

LSD
ABS Braking system
Cylinder head and Fuel injection system
5 speed "dogleg" gearbox

It's going to take time and effort, but as a 5-series (E28) was the next step on from the 2800/3000/3.0/3.3 BMWs (E9) platform then  I don't see any problem I could of gone down the 6-series route but they are "collectors" items in the UK so are expensive and were based on the E28 platform anyway!

As I have said time is going to be the biggest factor, so in the meantime I have a M535 to play with

I suppose I would tend to stay with the same make, so if I was going to "upgrade" a Pagoda I would stick with MB parts.

I will upgrade the old girl anyway. I would always choose modern materials simply because they will last better. for example poly bushes, stainless exahust, better valve guide and seals etc etc

I would not bung a Ford V8 in a Pagoda, but I might stuff a mercedes V8 in....... :twisted:
Cheers
Malc

[Ben]

I do a lot of driving and sometimes end up in the most remote of places. I would ALWAYS choose to use the Pagoda over my modern Merc as its just SO reliable. This is one reason why I prefer to use "points" ignition !

I also love the character of the straight six mechanical injected engine, the thrum is beautiful and the exhaust note is intoxicating!

Once everything is maintained and set up well the performance is pretty good..........sure I'd like more and one thing that always puzzled me is that there appears to be little of no mention of cylinder head & cam modification!  I know the US cars can use the Euro cam for more power, but there is no cam upgrade for my early Euro 230 engine. Also what about polishing and porting the head ?

When I overhauled my engine I asked the machine guy who specialised in these Merc engines if he could improve things. He opened up the ports slightly , to match the manifolds, but said there wasn't much you could do, he also spent a bit of time polishing !  The car runs great but I dunno if its down to his work or the fact that everything was new ad compresion was good. Just wondered why I never read anything about head mods ??

The Red coil will be next on my list anyway, but I am happy with the brakes and the ride/handling balance so I wouldn't change anything here, also I can't lower the car any further as the roads and speed humps here are terrible !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

[Malc]

quote:Originally posted by Ben


When I overhauled my engine I asked the machine guy who specialised in these Merc engines if he could improve things. He opened up the ports slightly , to match the manifolds, but said there wasn't much you could do, he also spent a bit of time polishing !  The car runs great but I dunno if its down to his work or the fact that everything was new ad compresion was good. Just wondered why I never read anything about head mods ??
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.

Ben,
I have "blue printed" a few engines over the years which can release another 5 - 30BHP. I guess unless you are prepared to start mucking about with valve diameters,cam timing and lift your not going to get much more power.

I would have a go as I built myself a flow bench (In true Blue peter style) and mucked about for ages with 3 cylinder heads from a SOHC Fiat engine. (whole engines purchased for £30 each)

But where could I get say 3 or 4 scrap 230 cylinder heads from? Then

I could "risk" porting to the limit, Gas flowing, maybe fitting larger valves, playing with valve timing and opening distances.

I guess at the end of the day it all comes down to time and money and would there be a market for such items as modified heads, cams etc bearing in mind the original purpose of the vehicle

Mind you I could turn the old girl into a historic stage rally car.... just don't tell the missus
Malc

[Cees Klumper]

Malc - if you're game maybe one day we can build our own 280 SL rallye car - I've got a couple of extra M130 heads around that I would donate to science. 230 heads are too scarce to do that to, I believe! It would not surprise me if we would be able to all pull together and build a "W113 Pagoda SL Group Rallye Car" that could be shared among a bunch of members.

Beyond the special-purpose rally car though, I don't think there would be much demand for increased performance.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[Malc]

Cees,
That sounds great!
Need a reasonabley sound shell  - Can weld
I have sources for most rally stuff
If I really did turn the old girl into a rally car I think I would use modern fire extinguishers, roll cage, seat belts and seats. I would have to carefully check the FIA / MSA regulations for Historic stage rallying cars. MSA being the Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body.

By the way was there only 1 car from the factory or were there others prepared and raced, even by private individuals?
Anybody know?
Be interesting to find out, plus all the modifications originally done.
Malc
(Oh dear another project    )
don't tell the good lady!

[Ben]

Actually I think Naj has a 250SL head on his 230 !. This has larger valves so it must be an improvement and probably not quite AS rare as a 230 head since there were plenty of sedans made !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor

[Cees Klumper]

quote:Originally posted by Malc

Cees,
That sounds great!
Need a reasonabley sound shell  - Can weld
I have sources for most rally stuff
If I really did turn the old girl into a rally car I think I would use modern fire extinguishers, roll cage, seat belts and seats. I would have to carefully check the FIA / MSA regulations for Historic stage rallying cars. MSA being the Motor Sports Association, the UK governing body.

By the way was there only 1 car from the factory or were there others prepared and raced, even by private individuals?
Anybody know?
Be interesting to find out, plus all the modifications originally done.
Malc
(Oh dear another project    )
don't tell the good lady!

Hi Malc. There is a list of modifications to Boehringer's rally 230 SL but I would like to take it further and really create our own car. I know of a couple of body shells available. I have plenty of engines to put in.

Ideally this car would be:
- one of two "Official W113 Pagoda SL Group Rally Cars"
- meaning this one would run in Europe, and the second one in the USA. Perhaps either could be put into service on other continents as well.
- it would be great if both cars could be as identical as possible under the different governing bodies' regulations - perhaps different colors
- qualified to participate in most major events around Europe
- legal ownership in the hands of a few individuals
- further financing of the operating costs through sponsorships and cost sharing by group members who can use the car to participate in individual events
-

Please chip in anyone!

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[norton]

I have a 250SL engine, needs to be rebuilt, a set of 230SL headers,a front cross member, a rear end, a hard top and some other stuff I might be willing to donate for the right project.

[TheEngineer]

I did a little "upgrading": H-4 bulbs into Hella headlights. Bosch halogen foglights, 3.27 rear axle, Blaupunkt München and 400 watt amplifier under seat and windshield tinted on top.

1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops, 3.27 axle. Retired engr. West Seattle, WA

[Malc]

Cees,
I can sort and source Sump guards materials probably need to be Aluminium to comply with Historic regs

If we think about it not everybody would want to stage rally so we could have 2 setups, one for the stages and one for tarmac / circuits

Malc

[Cees Klumper]

I must admit I am completely new to the subject of racing/rally driving. I don't even know what stage rallies are vs. tarmac/circuit, although I suppose I can guess it. Then there are probably many different classes & corresponding regulations to 'choose' from. In any event let's pursue this some more. It would be good to hear from people who DO know about the ins and outs of racing/rallying and what might be a good formula to go for.

Norton: hang onto those parts until we figure this out please!

I will open a separate discussion topic on this ...

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[70chevelle]

Mikey - I go back & forth with the same thoughts of "upgrading" my '70 280sl.  I found little information of how to fit an American v8.  The main problem that I have found is that the rack is behind the cross member and creates a problem with the oil pan, particularly on a Chevy small block.  I have had thoughts of purchasing an aftermarket IFS to install with the appropriate motor mounts.  I've read that the rear end is stout enough to handle the power made by the v8.  The biggest problem is that I have a spare 350 sbc and 350TH auto transmission to put in it. (a man left to his own devices) I could probably sell the drivetrain - engine & tranny out of the 280SL & pay for the aftermarket IFS.  It seems very enticing sometimes.  I just wish there was more information out there.

70 Chevelle 13.7 @ 99.7
70 280 SL Silver/Black top
99 C230 Kompressor
03 Dodge Durango SLT

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by 70chevelle

Mikey - I go back & forth with the same thoughts of "upgrading" my '70 280sl.  I found little information of how to fit an American v8.  The main problem that I have found is that the rack is behind the cross member and creates a problem with the oil pan, particularly on a Chevy small block.  I have had thoughts of purchasing an aftermarket IFS to install with the appropriate motor mounts.  I've read that the rear end is stout enough to handle the power made by the v8.  The biggest problem is that I have a spare 350 sbc and 350TH auto transmission to put in it. (a man left to his own devices) I could probably sell the drivetrain - engine & tranny out of the 280SL & pay for the aftermarket IFS.  It seems very enticing sometimes.  I just wish there was more information out there.

70 Chevelle 13.7 @ 99.7
70 280 SL Silver/Black top
99 C230 Kompressor
03 Dodge Durango SLT

Mikey

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Mikey

quote:Originally posted by 70chevelle

Mikey - I go back & forth with the same thoughts of "upgrading" my '70 280sl.  I found little information of how to fit an American v8.  The main problem that I have found is that the rack is behind the cross member and creates a problem with the oil pan, particularly on a Chevy small block.  I have had thoughts of purchasing an aftermarket IFS to install with the appropriate motor mounts.  I've read that the rear end is stout enough to handle the power made by the v8.  The biggest problem is that I have a spare 350 sbc and 350TH auto transmission to put in it. (a man left to his own devices) I could probably sell the drivetrain - engine & tranny out of the 280SL & pay for the aftermarket IFS.  It seems very enticing sometimes.  I just wish there was more information out there.

70 Chevelle 13.7 @ 99.7
70 280 SL Silver/Black top
99 C230 Kompressor
03 Dodge Durango SLT

Mikey

I have been looking at this possibility for years since one of my 113's is a rolling basket case with moderate but workable rust. It would be fiscally insane of me to try to restore it to original condition. I constantly wrestle with carving it up for parts or turning it into a nice driver with affordable American or other parts.  

I have found a few workable ideas over the years and it seems that U.S. hot rodders have solved pretty much all of the problems you have mentioned with bolt on steering racks and J.C. Whitney-esque motor mounts.

I even have a video tape from a years ago that shows a 113 with a Nissan 280Z motor very comfortably placed and running in the engine bay. Although I can't confirm it, according to the owner, Nissan bought the rights to the original M127-130 motor castings so the late 70's Nissan Z motor is almost identical.  



Mikey

[Benz Dr.]

The 230SL cam is the same as a euro 280 cam on the early engines. After they changed to the newer style head and block the cam was changed too.
The valve timing is slightly different but you can advance the timing with an off set woodruf key. I think the 230 and 280 valves are the same size on the face. The 280 has larger exhaust valve stems and the keepers/cones are different. I 've used 280 valve guides in 230 heads.

Daniel G Caron

[TheEngineer]

Be careful with advancing the valve timing: Check bottoming out of the intake valve: Posistion piston at 5degree after top dead center. Set up a dial indicator and verify that you have at least .9mm clearance between valve & piston. See BBB job 00-9/3. Also, my friendly MB dealer does not show offset woodruf keys in parts listing, even though P/N's are listed in the BBB. I just went thru this exersise and, yes, makes a big difference in power output.

1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops, 3.27 axle. Retired engr. West Seattle, WA