Cooling System Problems

[dirtrack49]

It appears that I have a bypass hose and possibly a water pump leaking on my 1966 230SL. This started six months ago prior to parking the vehicle due to medical problems. Well now that I am somewhat on the mend, I decided to have a go at finding out what has gone wrong.
I first removed the hood. Found it easier to remove if you leave the hood bolts on the right side tight instead of loosening all four to begin with. Make sure to cover all nearby body parts prior to removal.
With the hood removed, I can see that the alternator and the A/C bracket (Kuhlmeister installation) are in the way along with who knows what else? Since I don't have a clue as to when this vehicle last had any replacement of the water pump and hoses, I plan to replace everything I can while I have access.

The problem, how do I make access? Is there any set way that things need to come apart? I have read in other threads that the A/C makes this a difficult job, if so, why? I should also say that my a/c is inoperative due to damage to the condenser and I don't plan on fixing it anytime soon.

Thanks for any and all help anyone can provide.  

[ctaylor738]

Glad to hear you're feeling better, sorry to hear you need to deal with the AC.  I did this a couple of months ago.  You have to believe that it will come out because somebody installed it.

From memory:

Remove air cleaner assembly
Remove battery and battery box
Unftasten fan shroud
Unfasten fan from water pump and remove with should
Optional - raise car if you want to take radiator out by dropping it
Remove radiator
Slacken tension on power steering belt, remove belt
Remove heater return hoses as needed to allow access to compressor and bracket bolts
Unscrew condensor mounting but do not disconnect, and allow it to drop down and sort of out of way
Remove pulley/balancer assembly (needed to get at bracket's bottom bolt)
Remove alternator
Remove bolts holding compressor to bracket, lift out compressor and set it where air cleaner sat
Remove various nuts and bolts holding bracket to block and head, remove bracket.

By now, you've probably surmised that this is a lot of work.  So with access to the front of the engine, you should take a good look at the PS pump and hoses because this would be the time to replace them if leaning.

Good luck,

[dirtrack49]

Thanks Chuck for the run down. Wow, that does sound like a lot of work to get to a bypass hose! If I can get it all apart, I will replace everything that is perishable. This car might even have the original hose still on it.

What about the harmonic balancer? Does it take a special tool, or can it be taken off with a small flywheel puller or something similar?

Is it worthwhile to take the entire A/C system out of the car since I really don't have any use for it, or leave it in place and someday replace the damaged condenser? From reading other threads, It sounds like removing the A/C is even more work since other brackets and bolts are involved. However, just letting the A/C sit there and do nothing seems a little senseless. 

Thanks again,

[Jonny B]

A friend and I took the A/C out of his car, and the issues we had to deal with:

Relocating the alternator to it's pre-A/C position, required a new/used bracket. This was not hard to get, but be sure to get all the bits, bolts and nuts for the new bracket
The extra hoses do leave holes in the firewall, we installed a new firewall pad and just covered them up
The drain hose (in this car it was in the right front wheel well) we left the drain hose in place
Unscrewing the under dash unit, an extra set of hands is a big help
We had no mind for re-installing, and we cut the hoses off
Checking that all the remaining wiring is in good shape (no extra connectors, frayed wires, etc.)

[dirtrack49]

Thanks Jonny for the removal information. Don't know if I will leave it in there to repair one day, or take it out now. My guess is the A/C has probably not worked in well over 25 years. The condenser was damaged by the inner front grill work being pushed into it from some type of an accident. I guess I could at least remove the belt turning the A/C compressor for now.

I noticed after looking at a picture on "Buds" Mercedes parts site, that my A/C bracket looks different than the one depicted as OEM Kuhlmeister. My bracket, has a sideways "Y" shape to it when looking at it from the front of the car. Are there different A/C brackets found on the 230SL models?

If I need to remove the balancer, is there a certain type of puller needed? Anything I need to know before taking off the balancer?

Thanks again.

[ctaylor738]

The balancer comes off once the six cap screws are removed.  You might have to stick a pry bar between it and the block to help it along.  My $.02 is to keep the AC, and put one of the Sanden compressors in.  You can get a new condensor and hoses from Bud's.  I tossed mine during my resto and now wish I hadn't.

Dunno about the bracket.  Maybe there were different types from the two aftermarket vendors.

[dirtrack49]

Thanks Chuck again for the info.

This kind of sounds stupid, is the alternator bracket part of the giant A/C bracket or is it separate? I can't really tell at this point with so much crud built up over 48 years.

If I don't remove the A/C completely, does it make sense to at least remove the drive belt?

I just took a look again at the bottom radiator hose (which is one of my leaks) and it has the original band type clamp going into the block. How can these things last 48 years?

Who in the US sells quality OEM hoses that are apparently still on this car?

Thanks to everyone,

[Jonny B]

The alternator bracket is a separate piece.

The radiator/coolant hoses should be available through the dealer. When I replaced the ones on my 280 SL some four years ago, I used the dealer to source most of the them. With the MB Club discount it was pretty easy, and they were usually available within a couple of days.

[Benz Dr.]

Stuff the AC system in the trash can where it belongs.

[dirtrack49]

Took the alternator out of the car. It looks like if I can remove the alternator bracket, I can get to the bypass hose? And with the alternator out, I can get to the lower radiator hose and a 18mm heater hose?

Am I thinking correctly that the bypass hose on a 230SL is accessible if you take out the alternator and it's bracket? Or, do I need to remove the A/C bracket to access the thermostat bypass hose?

Maybe this thread went in the wrong direction. I was not necessarily looking at removing the A/C as much as I was looking to replace all of the coolant hoses. I was also under the impression that the water pump might be leaking, however, it turned out to be the lower radiator hose.

Thanks for any and all help.

[dirtrack49]

Update: Got everything off with the exception of the A/C bracket. 49 years of crud build up due mostly to a bad power steering hose. Trying to unearth all of the bolts to the A/C bracket and alternator bracket.

After reading all of the threads again, and looking at several others, I think we might be talking about different jobs. All of the threads I have come across reference the 280SL model. My car is a 66 230SL which lends me to think that we might be talking about two different set ups.

Does anyone with a late model 230SL know if the alternator bracket can be taken off separately from the A/C bracket to make access to the thermostat bypass hose?

Does the three bolt fan (six blade fan in this model) separate with the fan pulley when you remove the three 10mm bolts that attached it?

My water pump is most likely the original to this 76k mile car. It makes no noise, has no side play to it, and has oil in it still. Should I replace it, or just leave it alone?

TIA

[Benz Dr.]

Oh! That's a different thing all together!

 I would NOT run a 230SL with AC. I've seen enough broken 230SL and 220SE crankshafts to convince me that the drive end isn't strong enough for that extra load. The newer style rotary pumps are much better but it's still not a great idea. At the very least, I would have the crank checked for cracks.   

[dirtrack49]

Thanks Dan for the comeback and information.
I really don't want the air in the car to begin with. Since it is not working because the condensor is damaged, is it ok to just leave it all there and remove the A/C belt? I guess I am just being lazy and not wanting to replace the pulleys and brackets. The 230SL has three drive belts. The one closest to the engine is the A/C belt running off of a idler pulley. The 2nd belt in the center, runs the alternator and fan. The third belt, nearest the radiator, runs the power steering pump.
Does anyone know or have a picture of an A/C bracket separated from the alternator bracket?
From what I am looking at, it looks like the thermostat bypass hose can be reached if I can get the alternator bracket off separately from the A/C bracket? Is my thinking wrong here?
TIA

[Benz Dr.]

Generally, the AC bracket gets in the way of the very parts you're trying to get at. If you remove the AC bracket, you will need an alternator mount bracket and some hardware to effect the change over which is fairly easy to do. 

[dirtrack49]

Whahoo success!
Finally got to my goal, the damn thermostat bypass hose. After removing the radiator, condenser, water hoses, heater hoses, air hoses, air box canister, fan and alternator, three bolts hold on a separate alternator bracket that sits above the A/C bracket. The bolts evidently go into the block since coolant dribbles out. Also, be aware of the spacers found on each bolt holding the separate alternator bracket to the engine.
Evidently, unlike what I would guess most 280SL models have for an A/C-alternator bracket, the 230SL, or at least mine, has a separate alternator bracket which allows access to the thermostat bypass hose.
Two questions:
Does it sound reasonable to leave the A/C bracket in place and simply remove the compressor, idler pulley and A/C belt?
Does anyone have any experience good or bad with a "GRAF" water pump?
TIA

[Benz Dr.]

No problems with Graf  water pumps that I can think of. When I remove an AC system I remove everything and put the car back to the way it was.