New 6-speed transmission for W113

[66andBlue]

I chatted with Karl Middelhauve this afternoon about his latest projects : http://www.mbgrand600.com/
Those of you who want to shift a lot   or prefer a quieter car at higher speeds might want to contact him.
He is importing a few 6-speed trannies from Poland at a very reasonable price - much less than a new ZF 5-speed or most current Getrag 5-speed conversion (excluding shipping and customs).
The company makes different versions for a variety of MB models (W113, R107) including conversions for cars with automatic transmissions.

[GGR]

In the first picture, the bellhousing is a v8 one and the engine behind looks to be an M117 out of a euro w126 car, judging by the exhaust manifolds. Does he also sell a set up for MB v8 engines?

[Jonny B]

I saw a listing sent from my friend and mechanic at Silver Star MB. That listing indicated transmissions for 107/108/109

[waltklatt]

Most intrigued by the new 6 speeders.

How does one retrofit the gearshift lever?
Does this kit retain the original gearshift, or does one have to fit one from a later MB?

I had to retrofit my 4 speed gearshift (W113) to match the W201 gearshift box.

Walter

[66andBlue]

Here is a bit more information. They are sold by a German company "S&SG Getriebe", made in their Polish factory, and based on Getrag transmissions.
Expect a price of EUR 4.7K including shipping but w/o import duty.

Gear             Orig.4-            ZF5-               S&SG 6-Gang
1                     4,05                 3,83                 4,002
2                      2,23                 2,20                 2,108
3                      1,40                 1,40                 1,380
4                      1,00                 1,00                 1,000
5 +                                          0,81                 0,780
6 ++                                                               0,645

Speedo connection (mechanical) is unchanged, for MPH or KMH.

Walt, I do not know whether the kit comes with a new shifter.

GGR, yes the company lists conversions for V8 M116/117 engines. Call Karl for more info.

Jon, we have the same information. I am considering buying one for the red 230SL 

[66andBlue]

See my reply #4, line 2!

[Jowe]

This is the one, I guess:
http://oldtimer-ersatzteile24.de/6-Gang-Getriebe-fuer-Mercedes-230SL-W113-Pagode or
http://oldtimer-ersatzteile24.de/6-Gang-Getriebe-fuer-Mercedes-250SL-280SL-W113

With shifter and knob of color of choice.
N.B. Price incl. VAT for EU customers.

[stickandrudderman]

I'd be interested to see a road test report.
The getrag 5 speed conversions give a 5th gear ratio of 0.89 and you really need to be doing at least 50 mph before it's useable (but very nice from then on).
This 6 speed of 0.645 is going to be a very tall gear indeed for these cars and I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up encouraging much higher cruising speed that the rest of the car should be expected to safely accommodate.

[Benz Dr.]

I'd be interested to see a road test report.
The getrag 5 speed conversions give a 5th gear ratio of 0.89 and you really need to be doing at least 50 mph before it's useable (but very nice from then on).
This 6 speed of 0.645 is going to be a very tall gear indeed for these cars and I wouldn't be surprised if it ended up encouraging much higher cruising speed that the rest of the car should be expected to safely accommodate.

I tend to agree. Our car's engines are designed to run at high ( or higher) RPM's than modern engines. Running at 70 MPH at 2,800 RPM ( I'm guessing here ) may be lugging the engine more than you really want or need.

[mdsalemi]

I tend to agree. Our car's engines are designed to run at high ( or higher) RPM's than modern engines.

I have the original engine, auto transmission, and rear axle as delivered. However, Dan, you know that this screams--about 4,000 RPM at today's highway speeds. This bothers a lot of people and there's no end to solutions to something that is characteristic, (not a problem) including new/different rear axles; engine swaps, and new/different transmissions with varying overdrive gearing.

[Benz Dr.]

I have the original engine, auto transmission, and rear axle as delivered. However, Dan, you know that this screams--about 4,000 RPM at today's highway speeds. This bothers a lot of people and there's no end to solutions to something that is characteristic, (not a problem) including new/different rear axles; engine swaps, and new/different transmissions with varying overdrive gearing.

I understand that. A final gear ratio of about 3.46 is just about ideal for our cars. One of the things to consider is torque band and 2,500 RPM or lower is out of that range for our engines. What stick is saying is that you would need to drive about 80 MPH to obtain a decent RPM range in sixth gear to be operating in the torque band and that wouldn't be possible for a large portion of pagoda owners. If you lived in Texas or Arizona where you can drive those speeds all day long on the Interstate, then it could be OK for you.
Here in Ontario, you can loose your car and your license for driving 30 MPH over the speed limit of 50 MPH that's posted on most roadways.   

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Just like Mike my car has the original engine, auto transmission, and rear axle as delivered. I like it that way and have no plans to change anything. On the expressway I cruse around 3200 to 3400 RPM (very seldom do I see higher RPM unless I am overtaking another car). I do have my hardtop on the car (more now then before), this also muffles the noice quite a bit. I enjoy the car this way when I drive her, if I want to go faster I use my DD

I have to admit I lost hearing on my right ear (some quack of a doctor many years back poked a hole in my right eardrum and hearing detiriorated as the years went on, perhaps that is why the engine noise does not bother me that much).

From an engineering point of view I like to add that adding something that new (like a new transmission and driving at higher speeds) will eventually break other components on a car that was designed and manufactured some 45 to 50 years ago. Having said that and for that reason "I'm out" (as the Multi Millionaire's saying goes on the TV show DRAGON DEN) ~grin~

[66andBlue]

... If you lived in Texas or Arizona where you can drive those speeds all day long on the Interstate, then it could be OK for you.
Here in Ontario, you can loose your car and your license for driving 30 MPH over the speed limit of 50 MPH that's posted on most roadways.  

Right on the spot, Doctor!
Here is are some data showing what ideal Texas or Nevada or German Autobahn driving would give you with this transmission (converted from a table posted by B. Scheiter on the Pagodentreff web site).

Engine RPM at different car speeds (Tire: 185/80/14; 4.08 rear axle)

RPM at 62mph (100 km/h) in 2.Gear = 7276 Rev/min
RPM at 62mph (100 km/h) in 3.Gear = 4763 Rev/min
RPM at 62mph (100 km/h) in 4.Gear = 3452 Rev/min
RPM at 62mph (100 km/h) in 5.Gear = 2692 Rev/min
RPM at 62mph (100 km/h) in 6.Gear = 2226 Rev/min

RPM at 93 mph (150 km/h) in 3.Gear = 7145 Rev/min
RPM at 93 mph (150 km/h) in 4.Gear = 5178 Rev/min
RPM at 93 mph (150 km/h) in 5.Gear = 4039 Rev/min
RPM at 93 mph (150 km/h) in 6.Gear = 3340 Rev/min

[Benz Dr.]

4.08 is the lowest axle ratio you could get when our cars were new. It would be even lower with a 3.69 or even the common 3.92  A five speed makes a lot of sense but I'm just not convinced that a 6 speed is warranted. 

[tel76]

Can you please explain how a 3.69 ratio or a 3.92 ratio is lower than a 4.08 ratio? I was always taught that the higher the number the lower the ratio.

[GGR]

3.69 or 4.08 are already ratios, number of teeth on the crown / number of teeth on the pinion. The higher the number, the slower you go for a given rpm. I'm always a bit lost with the English terminology. In French lower numbers are said to be "long" ratios because the car "pulls long", of goes a longer distance for a given number of engine rotations. A higher number is said to be a "short" ratio, an the car "pulls short". In short, long is low and short is high, and there is a wide difference between the two  .

[stickandrudderman]

Can you please explain how a 3.69 or a 3.92 is lower than a 4.08?

Well, if you insist.
A smaller number deducted from a larger number results in a positive number so:
4.08-3.96=0.39.
Therefore 3.96 can be said to be a lower number than 4.08

I was always taught that the higher the number the lower the ratio

Which is correct.

Glad you asked?

[GGR]

What about the higher the ratio, the lower the gear? 

[Benz Dr.]

This gets confused all of the time. By lower, I meant lower engine RPM. Low gearing as in 4.08 will give you higher engine RPM, of course. As long as we all understand each other regardless of how it's stated.

[GGR]

Ah, so low is high and vice versa. I knew I had missed something!

[Scottcorvette]

We fitted a 6 speed into an early Corvette several years ago and it was just too much, the ratios were so short that you were constantly changing gear, and you didn't get into 6th until you were doing a considerable speed, certainly faster than you would really want to be driving. The owner wound up putting a 4.11 rear end in which improved things so I'm told, I'll bet it would still want to be a higher ratio than that though to make it really usable.

The 5 speed is a much nicer conversion in a Corvette, and I have just fitted a T5 5 speed into my Mustang, that has a 0.63 5th gear and a 3.70 rear end which is a nice combination, you can get into 5th at normal sort of cruising speed without labouring.

It would be good if someone came up with a conversion for our cars using a T5 or a Tremec TKO transmission as they are widely available and not crazy money. Seems the Getrag is getting a bit thin the ground now.

[hauser]

Ray Hays went with a Tremec on his '69!  He's very happy with it.  Buds Benz does this very same conversion as well.

[Raymond]

Scott, I put  a T-5 in my '68 with the 4.08 differential.   The TKO transmission will not fit the tunnel.  I also carefully chose the ratios for each gear so that 1st is taller/longer than the factory G72, 2nd is only a bit higher, 3rd and 4th are dead on, so that the car has very similar driving characteristics as factory up through 4th.  I chose 5th gear at 0.72 to keep it in the torque range.  I can use 5th over 40 MPH.  At 3000 RPM, I'm doing 76.  That's very comfortable, doesn't attract the attention of the constabulary.  On the recent 800 or so mile run to PUB and then back, I got 22+ MPG with air con on.  

The T-5 was available in about 20 different gear combinations and three shifter positions.  Bud's improved on my installation and uses the SL's shifter.  What you need to do is find your own T-5 and let them rebuild it.  They can tell you which model numbers work best.  

So that no one wonders, I don't get anything out of this recommendation I'm only commenting on my experience.

[Scottcorvette]

Thanks Ray, that is interesting. I have already bought a used Getrag which is currently being rebuilt, had I not found that and had known about the T5 conversion I maybe would have gone that route. I have already spent more on the used Getrag than a new T5 would have cost.

I didn't think the Tremec would fit, it is quite a big unit. My only criticism of the Tremec TKO600 transmissions we have fitted is that 1st gear is very short, in all the cars we have fitted them in you are out of first gear very quickly so moving traffic can be a pain, my Corvette has a Borg Warner T10 4 speed in it and that has a real long first gear and I think a 3.08 rear end, you can do around 40 in first! Makes town driving real easy, and that is the main reason why I wouldn't put a 5 speed in that car. I don't really do any long journeys in it and I really like the long first gear, not only that there is so much buffeting at anything over 60mph that you generally don't go faster than that.

I can't comment on the T5 as I have only done around 60 miles in it in the summer and can't really remember what it was like, I haven't checked the ratios but but I seem to remember it feels like it has a longer first. I can't remember what the Mercedes first gear was like as I only drove it once up the lane, I think that was a reasonably short first gear though.

[Raymond]

First gear on the G72 is 4.05.  The T-5 I chose has a 1st gear of 3.76.  It is still quite low but is a noticeable improvement over the original parade gear.  While I'm at it, the other G-72 gears are 2.18, 1.40, and 1.00.
My T5-(model 234) is 2.18, 1.42, 1.00, 0.72  Reverse in the G72 is 3.58 and 3.76 in the T-5.