Author Topic: How many leaks? Let me count the ways  (Read 12140 times)

TheEngineer

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How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« on: October 16, 2004, 08:35:01 »
The radiator leaked at the bottom. The fuel injection pump leaked oil from a threaded shaft, which had backed out until it was riding against the control lever. It also leaked oil from the forward end of the control shaft because the plastic cap had deteriorated. The hose from the engine to the oil cooler had become hard and leaked at the reusable fitting.

The front shaft seal at the crankshaft had been replaced recently, but with the wrong part: The correct seal has a shoulder on the outside, which makes it seal against the block. Replacing the seal eliminated that oil leak.

On the right forward lower side of the engine there are some 8 mm studs for mounting the alternator bracket. They are now used for the installation of the air conditioner compressor. They were a little short and the installer backed them out a few turns: Because the threaded holes go into the crankcase, oil leaked along the threads.

Another 8 mm socket head cap screw at the right forward side of the cylinder head is always submerged in oil and the thread cut into the block emerges behind the water pump. There was a regular washer under the screw instead of a sealing copper washer. For good measure, I also install screws with MB anaerobic sealant. (MB A002 989 47 20 10)

The shaft for the timing chain tensioner is capped off with a bolt. A longer one to attach the new alternator bracket replaced that bolt. It leaked oil along the threads.  It took one year to find and correct all the leaks. My garage floor now stays fairly clean.

The previous owner gave me all the invoices for work he had done: “Repair oil leaks” was frequently mentioned. One invoice from our local MB dealer shows an interesting item: “Seal oil leak previously repaired: No Charge: Leak unrepairable.” The previous owner had bought the car as a present for his wife. She drove it to the golf course a few times. It leaked so badly, it became an embarrassment. The floor of his garage always had oil on it.

The engine leaked one quart of oil about every 200 miles. An interesting comparison: My ’86 Toyota truck, with 210,000 miles, leaks two drops of transmission fluid standing overnight after driving. My daughter’s  ‘89Toyota Corolla with 87,000 miles does not leak at all.

1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops, 3.27 axle. Retired engr. West Seattle, WA
'69 280SL,Signal Red, 09 cam, License BB-59U
'67 230SL, 113042-10-017463 (sld)
'50 Jaguar Roadster XK120, #670.318 (sld)
tired engineer, West-Seattle,WA

Malc

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2004, 04:51:46 »
Ha,
You haven't own a series 1,2,3 or 4 Land Rover then!! :)
Not only do they leak from below, but also from above
That said there maybe posher better 4x4's about but there is nothing like a Land Rover that can't be fixed with a hammer, screwdriver, bits of wood, rope and a set of molegrips :D
Malc

gwuisman

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2004, 06:39:51 »
I fought a leak fight the last five years and I won the war. It took a lot af changing seals, hoses ect. This year there was not one drop on the floor. Only the transmission froms a little drop that evaporates or so. An oldtimer seller said once to me: don´t worry about leaking if an old car does not leak, be wooried as nothing is in it. Nice theory to convince someone to buy an oldtmer with worn parts.

Gerard Wuisman
1970 280sl

hands_aus

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2004, 15:47:47 »
Hey theengineer,
I was wondering about the threaded bolt of the water pump "Another 8 mm socket head cap screw at the right forward side of the cylinder head is always submerged in oil and the thread cut into the block emerges behind the water pump."
Is that bolt loosened when the impeller part of the water pump is replaced?

Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
« Last Edit: October 18, 2004, 15:49:14 by hands_aus »
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

TheEngineer

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2004, 16:11:15 »
Bob in Australia:
First, you have to turn things right side up. And, no, when you do the waterpump that bolt is not involved. The bolt I had so much trouble with is under the valve cover, on the right hand forward side (looking forward when you sit in driving position) In that location is the plunger which keeps the timing chain tensioner tight. The plunger is submerged in oil because there is a dam which makes for a puddle of oil about one inch deep. When you suck that oil out you'll see the head of an Allen head screw: It takes a 6 mm allen wrench. When oil seeps under that screw head it continues down past the screw thread and to the exterior of the cylinder block behind the water pump. Eventually it ends up on your garage floor.

1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops, 3.27 axle. Retired engr. West Seattle, WA
'69 280SL,Signal Red, 09 cam, License BB-59U
'67 230SL, 113042-10-017463 (sld)
'50 Jaguar Roadster XK120, #670.318 (sld)
tired engineer, West-Seattle,WA

hands_aus

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2004, 04:40:22 »
Thanks for the info. It always helps to be the right way up!
I have noted these leaks for when I have to look for mine.
The front crankshaft seal is a prime suspect, and I think the oil bath air filter canister also is a worry.
These are not urgent problems for me at this time.
cheers

Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

tuultyme

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2004, 22:33:25 »
Hey theengineer
Can the bolt in the cylinder head near the timing chain tensioner be removed and resealed without removing the chain tensioner?  Or is just a mater of removing the oil?  Besides the sealant did you put on the correct copper washer?  Also should this bolt be torqued to any specific amount?

Bruce; 268Blaugrun(green) 1970 280SL; IL

TheEngineer

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2004, 23:43:16 »
Dear Tuultyme:
Yes, the bolt can be removed easily, it is about 1¼ inches long and you have to watch that you don't drop it into the engine. Stuff Kleenex into all openings. After you suck the oil out of behind the dam, the bolt head becomes visible. If you apply gentle pressure to the lever which tightens the chain, it will move and slack the chain. Then you can push the chain tensioner aft easily and you don't need any more than ¼ inch to remove the bolt. You'll need a long allen wrench. I used a sealing washer, one of the ones which are used under the screws for the cam shaft cover. I couldn't find any torque data. It's not critical, I believe, the bolt fastens into cast iron.One more thing: After you have installed the bolt, fill the trough with oil and pump the chain tightener. This gets oil into the hole where the piston and spring are, which tighten the chain. When it is full of oil and all the air is purged, the chain tightener feels like it has no slack and is hard to push down.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2004, 11:20:54 by theengineer »
'69 280SL,Signal Red, 09 cam, License BB-59U
'67 230SL, 113042-10-017463 (sld)
'50 Jaguar Roadster XK120, #670.318 (sld)
tired engineer, West-Seattle,WA

tuultyme

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2004, 22:52:38 »
I still do not find the bolt under the chain tensioner.  Can the tensioner just be moved enough?  Does the chain guide bracket need to be moved at all?  

Download Attachment: tensioner.jpg
28.53 KB

In the above picture I have not removed any of the oil "behind the dam" should have more than what appears in the picture?  The reason I ask is that the chain next to the guide can be moved about 10 cm.  Maybe the tensioner is losing its oil pressure or sometime.  The car has been sitting for about two weeks.

Download Attachment: chain guide 1.jpg
67.89 KB

Download Attachment: chain guide 2.jpg
78.93 KB

Maybe I should start I new discussion post about this!

Bruce; 268Blaugrun(green) 1970 280SL; IL

TheEngineer

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2004, 11:42:09 »
To Tuultyme:
From the photographs it looks like your engine is different than mine. In your picture there is no dam and no bolt. I don't have an answer.

'69 280SL,Signal Red,007537,tired engineer, West-Seattle, WA
« Last Edit: December 17, 2004, 21:50:21 by theengineer »
'69 280SL,Signal Red, 09 cam, License BB-59U
'67 230SL, 113042-10-017463 (sld)
'50 Jaguar Roadster XK120, #670.318 (sld)
tired engineer, West-Seattle,WA

tuultyme

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2004, 10:38:50 »
Can anyone explain to me how to get to the bolt under the chain tensioner so that I can "reseal" it?  see picture.  Do I need to remove the tensioner?

Bruce; 268Blaugrun(green) 1970 280SL; IL

Naj ✝︎

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2004, 13:28:53 »
Bruce,
I had my 230 valve cover off and was checking the chain tension.
I could not get my finger between chain and guide like you can. Did you mean 10 cm (~ 4 inches!!) or 10mm?
Also, I can see oil in the well! Maybe your chain is too loose and the prong on the tensioner has knocked off the dam(n) wall??



Download Attachment: Fltr07_edited.JPG
40.17 KB

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL
« Last Edit: December 18, 2004, 17:04:42 by naj »
68 280SL

tuultyme

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2004, 14:38:53 »
I guess I do mean 10mm.  Hopefully the oil is leaking out the bolt hole that I am tring to find under the chain tensioner.  Is it fairly easy to take off the chain tensioner and how will its removal affect the timing chain once I put it back on?  Hopefully I am going somewhere which is not too difficult.

Bruce; 268Blaugrun(green) 1970 280SL; IL

ja17

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2004, 19:21:28 »
Hello Bruce,
You can force the tensioner sprocket rearward on it's pivot pin enough to get the long leg of a 6mm allen wrench into the bolt head.

The engineer has given you a good summary of places to find unusual leaks. Most of these leaks are caused by incorrect assembly.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
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Naj ✝︎

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2004, 16:59:46 »
Bruce,
Maybe these two photos (self-explanatory??) will help:



Download Attachment: DSCN0285_edited.JPG
38.85 KB



Download Attachment: DSCN0286_edited.JPG
56.74 KB

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL
« Last Edit: December 18, 2004, 17:02:33 by naj »
68 280SL

tuultyme

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2004, 19:01:46 »
I used some rags and removed the oil from the "dam" under the tensioner and found the Bolt!  

Download Attachment: tensioner bolt.JPG
31.52 KB

Removed it, it was fairly loose and put sealer on it and reinstalled.

Download Attachment: tensioner bolt 2.jpg
56.43 KB

Got the car back together and took a short run around the block;  now to see if the leak is fixed; may have to wait till spring.  Now onto the next project.
Had a little scare with the timing chain will start a new post.

Bruce; 268Blaugrun(green) 1970 280SL; IL

TheEngineer

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2004, 10:58:51 »
There you go! Congratulations! Success comes not from being a genius or having the highest education, it comes from being persistent! (Not from me, but saw the quote somewhere)
'69 280SL,Signal Red, 09 cam, License BB-59U
'67 230SL, 113042-10-017463 (sld)
'50 Jaguar Roadster XK120, #670.318 (sld)
tired engineer, West-Seattle,WA

hands_aus

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2005, 05:01:39 »
I am looking at my cars' oil leaks.

Is it possible for the oil to CREEP from the crankshaft front seal area to the subframe under the oil bath air filter and along the metal in front of the radiator?

Note:- the base of the radiator is not covered in oil

I thought that as the air was being pushed backwards the back of the bottom of the engine would be covered in oil.... which it was until i wiped it clean.

My opinion is that there are at least two areas to be sorted out.

So I think the oil bath air filter unit needs to be cleaned and tested for leaks. Has anyone done this and are there any tricks I should look out for?

I had considered replacing the air filter with a paper one BUT the whole unit needs to be replaced because they are completely different internally.

And personally I am trying to keep the car as original looking (not restored) as possible.

Any suggestions?

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

hands_aus

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2005, 04:42:46 »
I removed the oil bath air filter unit.

I cleaned it out and found no cracks in the case.
It is a double skinned unit with the air intake openings facing the inside of the engine bay.

The unit has 2 supports :-
a rubber bumper
a bracket with a slide adjustment for level .
The hose that connects to the Venturi unit provides a stabilising function.

I cleaned the well that the filter unit sits in.

When the unit had dried I re-installed it making sure that the base was level.

I think that the way it was previously installed allowed the returning oil to run out of the air intake opening and all over the front RHside chassis.

The 3 filters were cleaned 12 months ago so I didn't bother to do it again.

I will now drive the car and look for oil weeps.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

Naj ✝︎

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2005, 05:53:53 »
Bob,
How much oil did you put in the filter bowl?

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL
68 280SL

hands_aus

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2005, 04:22:21 »
Hey Naj,

Quantity wise I am not sure but there is a bump with red paint on it in the centre of the base unit.
I filled it about halfway up to that red paint mark. I couldn't see any other oil level markings.

I thought I would drive it for a while to see if there is any oil on the front subframe before adding extra oil.

What do you reckon?

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

Naj ✝︎

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Re: How many leaks? Let me count the ways
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2005, 05:05:30 »
Yep, that blob of paint is the level mark - so you should be okay!
If its overfilled then it leaks out.

naj

65 230SL
68 280SL
68 280SL