Author Topic: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed  (Read 37146 times)

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2016, 16:47:53 »
Dan, Absolutely!  ;)

Thanks Pinder, I have a tube of thread sealer on hand. Will do the manifold studs in addition to the ball stud bases.
Tyler
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2016, 23:48:02 »
So with everything else going on I forgot to check ALL the camshaft bearings. The end ones looked good so I didn't see this until yesterday.  :(  New camshaft on order from Germany. None in the states. New bearings were available here.
I'm thinking with the warped head that it was overheated at some point. The head is warped up in the middle so it took out the center camshaft bearings. The gouge is too deep to repair with a new grind and undersize bearings.
Pandoras Box strikes again.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Benz Dr.

  • Vendor
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7219
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2016, 23:57:01 »
That's a tough one and it's not all that common either. Most damaged cams have bad lobes but the main journals generally remain intact.

Is the cam junk or can it be saved?   
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #53 on: March 03, 2016, 00:10:50 »
Dan, there is almost a 1mm deep groove gouged out of the journal on #3 so I'd say its junk. Too bad because the lobes are almost perfect. I already have a new set of standard size bearings so even if it could be repaired I would need another set of undersize. Oh, Well. I'll keep the old one for garage art.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Pinder

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NJ, Edison
  • Posts: 1031
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #54 on: March 03, 2016, 01:41:47 »
Tyler,

 When I adjusted the valves. I found that one of my lobes (exhaust) has some were.  I was thinking of replacing the cam but as the car seems to run ok. I may defer to a later time.   How much is the new cam?  I could not find one in the states. I was considering getting it splatter welded and re ground. Ive asked for estimates and will post prices. For now as its the cam and relatively easy to swap out Ill run the car as is.
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.
1997 Corvette C5 Silver. automatic
2015 BMW 320i xdrive
2021 Mercedes GLS450 Silver

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #55 on: March 03, 2016, 02:00:57 »
Pinder, I wish it was just a bad lobe. That only runs a couple hundred to repair. If they re-grind your cam after the repair, I wonder if they could put the 09 "hot cam" profile on it!  This new cam just under $700 including shipping. Don't have an invoice yet so not sure how much of that was the cam itself.(taxes, shipping etc) Yes, none in the states. Germany has 57 of them! Keep in mind this is for a 250sl. Your price may vary for application. You may also need to replace the rockers and the cam bearings. I wouldn't run a new cam on old bearings or rockers.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 02:16:02 by Tyler S. »
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7410
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #56 on: March 03, 2016, 04:54:48 »
Those Camshaft  journals are not under a lot of load.  The groove should have no consequence as long a the bearing is good and the cam journal is up to specs. A lot of the early cams had a deep grooves cut into the journals from the factory. Of coarse new is always best unless you need the $700.00 somewhere else!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #57 on: March 03, 2016, 07:18:55 »
Joe, this is definately not a factory groove. Its so bad that the groove sides had mushroomed up eating into the bearing.  I had to heat the bearing just to get it off past this lip that was created. I thought about a used cam but theres just no way to know what condition you will get. I already have a new set of bearings and rockers so a new cam just makes sense at this point. Putting the 700 into new squareweave carpet woulda been nice! :-\
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7410
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #58 on: March 03, 2016, 15:02:52 »
Yes, I can see that is not a factory groove. Unfortunately it sounds like the cam bearing was damaged beyond use. Build up on the cam journal itself can be cleaned off by in a lathe, but if it is undersize then you have problems. New rocker arms are recommended when installing a new cam (ouch $) if new rockers, then new ball adjuster studs and pressure pads also (ouch $$). In most cases the good used rockers etc. will work fine. Inspect them closely.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #59 on: March 03, 2016, 17:21:28 »
With all the other new parts I have collected over the past 2 years, the only things being re-used on the head are the inner springs, rotators, and valve seats. Other than the cam and bearings, the rest of the old parts are in good shape. But since I have new, why not use them.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

ja17

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Blacklick
  • Posts: 7410
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #60 on: March 03, 2016, 22:55:27 »
Yes, you can't go wrong with new!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #61 on: March 04, 2016, 23:24:19 »
Picked the head up today. Final thickness after straightening and machine work is 84.5mm Have almost everything ready to re-assemble. New cam bearings, rockers, ball studs, ball stud spring clips, all sprockets, chain, tensioner arm pin, valve thrust pieces, oiler tube, and other misc parts. A set of .30mm (.0118in) cam tower shims are on the way to make up for the .012in (.006 on each side) the head was surfaced. Camshaft should be here next week. Sure does look pretty right after machining.  :D
I learned somthing new today. The machine shop knurls the top outside part of the valve guide to keep the valve stem seals from slipping off! Gives them somthing to grab on too.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2016, 05:54:55 by Tyler S. »
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

66andBlue

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Solana Beach
  • Posts: 4733
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #62 on: March 05, 2016, 04:39:33 »
.... The machine shop knurls the top outside part of the valve guide to keep the valve stem seals from slipping off! Gives them somthing to grab on too.
Can you posy a photo please?
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2016, 05:50:52 »
Sure Alfred, I hope these can be seen. It's hard filming with a potato.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

erickmarciano

  • Associate Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • Canada, Quebec, montreal
  • Posts: 544
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #64 on: March 05, 2016, 14:49:13 »
Got a question
If we know how much was cut from original thickness can we determine the shim needed for the cams? How about the spring spacers?

Thanks for a great post
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

Pinder

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, NJ, Edison
  • Posts: 1031
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #65 on: March 05, 2016, 15:25:10 »
Looks really good.
1970 280 SL Light Ivory DB 670. 4 Speed manual shift no AC Limited Slip Diff.
1997 Corvette C5 Silver. automatic
2015 BMW 320i xdrive
2021 Mercedes GLS450 Silver

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #66 on: March 05, 2016, 16:30:02 »
Erick, yes you would want to use a shim or a combination of shims closest to the measurment of total thickness of the head removed. In my case .012in was removed so I ordered .0118 (.30mm) shims. The valve thrust shims are a little different. The valves in my case were replaced, however the original seats were ground. There is a spec in the bbb for determining stem height v.s thrust piece measurment. In my case, 3.5mm thrust piece vs the stock 4.5 will be used. You need to take into account the cam shims being added to this measurment because the cam sits higher off of the resurfaced head.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

erickmarciano

  • Associate Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • Canada, Quebec, montreal
  • Posts: 544
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #67 on: March 05, 2016, 17:11:04 »
Thanks
Where can I find these cam shims?
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #68 on: March 05, 2016, 17:36:55 »
Thanks
Where can I find these cam shims?
Metric Motors. Listed in the "suppliers" list here.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

erickmarciano

  • Associate Member
  • Gold
  • *****
  • Canada, Quebec, montreal
  • Posts: 544
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #69 on: March 05, 2016, 21:20:07 »
did you shim under the springs?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2016, 00:57:33 by erickmarciano »
1994 E500 W124
1971 280sl
1989 Porsche 930 coupe
1988 e30 m3
2001 ducati mh900
2006 ps1000
1962 Vespa GS160

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2016, 02:03:02 »
No,  If its out of spec you would need to replace the seats as well as the valves.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #71 on: March 10, 2016, 00:55:57 »
FedEx dropped off the new camshaft today. It's a lot more refined than the old one. There is no rough casting area between lobes. This thing is ready to go back together. Busy painting the block and chasing threads with a tap, nothing too exciting. Next post will be with the head married to the block.
Tyler
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Tyler S

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Encinitas
  • Posts: 1613
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #72 on: March 10, 2016, 23:38:32 »
Making headway. Head and camshaft installed. Looks great with all new parts. Too bad the valve cover hides it all.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

kampala

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Beach Cities
  • Posts: 1242
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #73 on: March 11, 2016, 05:34:03 »
Looks fantastic.   Now you will have to make a "clear" valve cover or at least a viewing port. 

Appreciate the updates.



250sl - later - manual
280sl - 1971 - Auto - LSD

mbzse

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Sweden, Stockholm, Stockholm
  • Posts: 1748
Re: Head Removal. To proceed or not to proceed
« Reply #74 on: March 11, 2016, 07:40:17 »
Quote from: Tyler S.
Making headway. Head and camshaft installed.../...
Nice to see your fine head refurbish work... thanks for sharing
/Hans in Sweden
/Hans S