Author Topic: starving of fuel (Read 11549 times)

Pinder · « **on:** March 04, 2016, 03:35:00 »

Ok so today My brother and I took the 69 for a drive, (first drive since we got the engine working , brakes clutch etc) New Comp cams ignition etc. Car ran great all the way to the gas station. About 2 miles. Getting back was a bit different. We made it back but car was stalling at every stop light and of course you meet all the idiots on the road on the way (driving too slow, blocking the road, you get the picture), finally we pull in and I look at the glass filter i put in before the fule pump and its totally clogged. Cleaned out out and the car then ran fine.

So what should we do with the gas tank I have already dropped it and cleaned it out but lots of crap stilll coming out. By a new tank ? get a fuel cell? boil it? or send it out to a place? what would you do?

ja17 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 04, 2016, 05:00:16 »

Might be coming out of the metal fuel lines now. Your filter screen in the fuel pump will clog first if it is the tank.

Tyler S · « **Reply #2 on:** March 04, 2016, 05:18:12 »

Remember that most of the fuel in the whole system is eventually dumped back into the tank via the return line. So any debris from anywhere will find its way back to the tank. You could try running the fuel pump with a battery charger for an hour or so and keep cleaning out that filter and see if it clears up.

Pinder · « **Reply #3 on:** March 04, 2016, 13:08:28 »

Its definitely the fuel tank. Im using the carter pump that Joe has recommend on this site. It works very well. a bit loud but does the job nicely. I have a glass inline filter that has a fine mesh screen that can be cleaned. Its very useful to see the silt being captured by the filter. Im planning to drop the tank again. do another cleaning. Use apple cider vinegar, put a chain in the tank, shake it around to get any loose flakes off, power wash then re install. Ive read mixed opinions on using a tank sealer so not sure if I should do that.

Tyler S · « **Reply #4 on:** March 04, 2016, 15:43:57 »

My Father and I strapped an Airstream fresh water tank to a small cement mixer and filled it with Icecubes and bleach and let it run for an hour. Worked great. The Icecubes eventually melt so theres no chance of anything being left behind.

ja17 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 04, 2016, 22:52:55 »

Clever Tyler! I never tried that method.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #6 on:** March 04, 2016, 23:10:10 »

Quote from: Pinder on March 04, 2016, 13:08:28

Its definitely the fuel tank.

If it's the fuel tank, it's probably the original and at the end of its life with the inside coating gone. You are probably going to spend a lot of time trying all kinds of different treatments and such, and your problem will keep coming back. The solution to your problem, long term (longer than the 2 miles to the gas station) is a new tank. Yes, they are expensive. I fought fuel related issues for a couple of years after restoration, and one old German mechanic took a look, we changed the tank and the fuel issues went away. Only sorry I hadn't been advised to do that two years earlier when the tanks cost less. Oh, what's that noise? Yes, it's the tank price going up...

twistedtree · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2016, 02:03:58 »

I agree with Michael. Just bite the bullet and get a new fuel tank - unless of course you enjoy removing and cleaning the fuel system once a month or so..:-) I learned the lesson the hard way on one car, and got smarter on the second.

Jordan · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2016, 02:42:51 »

I'm with Michael and Peter, get a new tank. Costly yes, but you will never have to worry about it again and you'll probably save your fuel pump as well. I replaced my tank the second time I got towed home because of fuel starvation issues.

114015 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 05, 2016, 02:47:07 »

Quote

I agree with Michael. Just bite the bullet and get a new fuel tank

Naaa, that's no option.
Have got the early tank until serial no. 000202. Proper replacement has been"unobtainium" for 20 years.

Was cheap in the old days ... 165 German Marks (equal to $$ 85.00) about a quarter of a century ago...

Those were the days.

Quintessence: Get it cleaned properly. And sealed. Helps you another 25 or so years.

Achim

twistedtree · « **Reply #10 on:** March 05, 2016, 02:55:20 »

Wouldn't a '69 have the same tank as all the 280s? I bought one new from the Classic Center about 5 years ago. It's wasn't cheap at about $900, but it was available. Maybe that has changed. I also got one for an early 230 around the same time.

114015 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 05, 2016, 03:21:34 »

Quote

Wouldn't a '69 have the same tank as all the 280s?

Yes, Peter,
That's correct.
All 250ies and 280ies have the same tank, 82 liters.

230ies have got the smaller 65 liter tank.
Only early 230ies up to serial 000202 have got a slightly different tank and the fuel line outlets are sideways ("sidepipes") and not located at the front as on all other tanks.
Would like to keep that correct on my car, if possible.

But you guys are of course correct, a new gas tank will always keep the longest.

Best,
Achim

Pinder · « **Reply #12 on:** March 05, 2016, 15:22:31 »

I agree that the right thing to do is get a new tank and it would be what I would do if it were not for the $900 or so price tag. thats a lot of cash so I want to find a creative way around this problem before I through the towel in. I even contemplated getting a fuel cell tank and fit it in the trunk as a backup.

twistedtree · « **Reply #13 on:** March 05, 2016, 17:30:44 »

Quote from: Pinder on March 05, 2016, 15:22:31

I agree that the right thing to do is get a new tank and it would be what I would do if it were not for the $900 or so price tag. thats a lot of cash so I want to find a creative way around this problem before I through the towel in. I even contemplated getting a fuel cell tank and fit it in the trunk as a backup.

I hear you. Just keep in mind that you are also risking your fuel pump, and to a lesser extend your fuel injection pump and injectors. The later would presumably be protected by your fuel filter. After cleaning my tank with a chain etc., then trashing a perfectly good fuel pump which at the time "only" cost $600, I decided enough was enough. I also felt my time was better spent solving new problems rather than re-solving old ones. But we all assess this stuff differently, and that's just fine.

twistedtree · « **Reply #14 on:** March 05, 2016, 17:33:23 »

Quote from: 114015 on March 05, 2016, 03:21:34

Yes, Peter,
That's correct.
All 250ies and 280ies have the same tank, 82 liters.

230ies have got the smaller 65 liter tank.
Only early 230ies up to serial 000202 have got a slightly different tank and the fuel line outlets are sideways ("sidepipes") and not located at the front as on all other tanks.
Would like to keep that correct on my car, if possible.

But you guys are of course correct, a new gas tank will always keep the longest.

Best,
Achim

I see. I though you were talking about Pinder's tank. Now I see you are talking about yours. And I never knew the very early models were different. Learn something new every day.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #15 on:** March 05, 2016, 19:03:18 »

Quote from: Pinder on March 05, 2016, 15:22:31

I agree that the right thing to do is get a new tank and it would be what I would do if it were not for the $900 or so price tag. thats a lot of cash so I want to find a creative way around this problem before I through the towel in. I even contemplated getting a fuel cell tank and fit it in the trunk as a backup.

A fuel cell will work. It will cost probably between $200 and $300 just for the cell...
Peter Lesler had one in the trunk of his cars that he raced...see attachment.
You will be required to basically "re-plumb" the fuel system...so in addition to the fuel cell, you'll have a bunch of custom fuel lines and fittings, and then you have to put it all together.

How much will this save you? Probably not much. Also most fuel cells won't have the capacity of the OEM tank, (there goes your range) and the trunk space is now gone.

Pinder · « **Reply #16 on:** March 06, 2016, 01:40:01 »

yes. Its true about the fuel cell taking up the trunk. I almost contemplated getting one to fit inside of the original tank. Cut the top off the original and imbed tank in it. I know you probably think this is crazy but Its one of those 4 am thought you have while contemplating a problem.

Tyler S · « **Reply #17 on:** March 06, 2016, 02:47:05 »

Maybe look into this company for repair. They have a lifetime guarantee and probably a lot better equipment than a chain.

Looks as if they have locations all around.
http://www.gastankrenu.com

Pinder · « **Reply #18 on:** March 06, 2016, 15:45:46 »

Yes thats for that Link Tyler. They have a place in NJ

Tyler S · « **Reply #19 on:** March 06, 2016, 16:20:36 »

You might want to print off the function of the flower pot from the tech manual and send it along with. Make sure they maintain its integrity. Im curious if they cut open the tank or not. If you find out post back here. Thanks.

Pinder · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2016, 01:50:30 »

I'll find out. From reviews from other websites such as HAMB a lot depends on the specific place that does it and there skill level. If it was me Id cut the the top of the tank. Sand blast and seal then weld back up but my welding skills are very basic. I tink they put a few one inch size holts to accept a sand blasting nozzle.

Jordan · « **Reply #21 on:** March 07, 2016, 02:31:04 »

Pinder, keep in mind that if you have a lot of rust particles in your tank already then the thickness of the tank wall is already comprimised. Sandblasting and reasealing will not put that metal back so you really don't know how thick the remaining tank really is. Also, do a search on the "flower pot" and make sure it's function is not altered if getting the tank sealed or you'll be back to fuel starvation issues every time the fuel level falls below the top of the flower pot.

mdsalemi · « **Reply #22 on:** March 07, 2016, 14:45:30 »

In its native form, (unaltered) the Gas Tank Renu process appears to be somewhat incompatible with a plastic flower pot.
The raw process as described, includes organic solvents, commercial rust remover, baking in an oven at 350-370 degrees, coating with liquid plastisol or PVC (one or the other is described in their patents) and then curing the coating by baking once again.

If there is some way to protect the plastic flower pot--an integral and essential part of the Pagoda fuel system--from the liquid plastisol or PVC, then this method might stand a chance of success. The other questions become what kind of plastic is the flower pot made of, and can it stand the chemical cleaning? Can it stand the drying and curing process at 350-370 degrees?

I surely don't have the answers to these questions, but this isn't the first time this has been brought up.

If there was a way to remove the flower pot, "renu" the tank, and then reinstall the flower pot, this sounds like a worthwhile process.

Pinder · « **Reply #23 on:** March 07, 2016, 16:27:30 »

all valid points and now gives me more to think about.

Tyler S · « **Reply #24 on:** March 07, 2016, 16:42:52 »

That's why I was curious if they cut a hole in the top of the tank. I'm sure there is a way to remove the flower pot for the procedures then re-install it before welding the tank shut. I cant make it out in pictures but it looks like it is held in place by 3 tangs or nuts. We are going to have to find a way sometime in the future as these tanks wont be available forever.
Tyler

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Author Topic: starving of fuel (Read 11549 times)