driver-side mirror position - door or fender?

[martyd]

Hello,
I have a '64 230SL LHD, California car, with the driver side mirror way forward on the fender.  I have seen only couple of pictures of cars with the mirror at that location.  Almost every photo I see has it on the door. Can anyone comment on the history of the mirror placement? Would I negatively affect the authenticity of the car if I moved the mirror to the driver's door?  Thanks.

[Jordan]

I don't believe the mirror has even been on the fender.  Even promo pictures of the 230SL when it was first introduced show the mirror on the door.

If you remove your interior door panel you should see a small reinforcing plate inside the door at the top front.  This is where the mirror would/should be mounted.  I'm not 100% sure the early 230SL's have the reinforcing plate but someone who has one can hopefully comment (Alfred?).

[66andBlue]

Marcus,
are you having "senior moments" already? 
You forgot your own post: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=12279

martyd,
if your car was indeed delivered in CA then the position of the mirror is wrong. However, if it was delivered in France then the position could be correct (read the posts in the link above). You really need to check the data card and let us know where it was delivered.
In any case, if it was a French car then you lost the original mirror and finding a correct one is most likely impossible.
I do not know off hand whether the early cars had the reinforcement plate already welded into the door frame or have a loose one. I'll be taken my driver door apart soon and can check for you but be a bit patient please.

Welcome to the group and show us more photos of your car and tell us about its history.

[Jordan]

Marcus,
are you having "senior moments" already? 
You forgot your own post: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=12279.

Alfred, you expect me to remember something from 6 years ago when I can't remember last week?   I've been having seniors moments for as long as I can remember.

[mmizesko]

Door

[Iconic]

Mike,
Why do you simply state "door"?
Did you read the thread from the link that Alfred attached?
Hopefully the OP in this thread will tell us where the car was originally delivered.
Maybe the OP has the actual car that is in the magazine in the other thread, but repainted, of course.
The mirror and position look the same to me (not the collapsable mirror near the windshield, the one far forward on the fender).
Very interesting.

[mmizesko]

I thought it was a survey....LOL

[Iconic]

Survey !!!?*&^
We are on the brink of the most interesting discussion since the beginning of time and you think it is a survey?   

Seriously, if the mirror and position is correct due to some unique situation, it would be a shame if the OP moves it to our boring usual position on the door.
I wonder if the OP is "listening".

[martyd]

Hi everyone, I am listening and the conversation is terrific.
The car is currently in California and I am in Kansas.  It was my mother's cousin car, long-time Californian, and I have no reason to suspect the car has any "French" heritage
I recently inherited the car, it needs LOTS of work, so I am learning about pagodas, restoration, and I become fascinated by their history and I want to do it right.
Per my reading, the car was likely not silver originally.  I say that because the dashboard/glove box are a dark grey, which I believe they matched the colors to the exterior of these cars?
Pardon my naivety, but the data card, where would I find that?  Would that also confirm the original paint color?
Again, many thanks for your thoughts, this is a terrific group.  What are your final thoughts about the mirror?  Leave it or move it?
Thanks.
Marty

[martyd]

Here is another view of the car and its mirror.

[Iconic]

Could it be this car? (picture came out very small, but if you open the link that 66andBlue (Alfred) posted, it is big there)
White steering wheel !!
Did your mother's cousin buy it new?
Maybe Japanese, not French.
You can get Data Card from the Mercedes Benz Classic Center in Irvine, CA. Just give them a call and they will give you the specifics.
Yes, from the factory, glove box and dash match exterior paint on body, not necessarily the hardtop.
Also, there is a horizontal plate under the hood on the driver's side near the fender that has a bunch of numbers. The paint code is there as well as on the Data Card.
Both can be decoded using information in the Tech Manual, or post a picture of the plate under the hood and I'm sure someone will tell you the color. I understand you are not with the car, but maybe someone can take a picture of the plate under the hood.

[mmizesko]

Interesting that your rear view mirror is black plastic, rather than the chrome from the pre-1968 era.  Replaced along the way?

Mark,  I wonder how one can figure this one out.  Perhaps on the German Pagodentreffen site?  although no one ever responds to my einfaches deutsch posts there.

Mike

PS I still like the door mount best.  You can't mount the passenger side mirror on the fender due to the antenna, and I am all about the symmetry.  But I do appreciate the novelty and resulting excitement.

[Iconic]

Mike,
I look forward to see what others have to say.
By the way, your Deutsch is better than my Deutsch !!

Marty,
I'm glad you are listening. Sometimes a new poster asks a question, we go on for months about it, and we never hear from him/her again.
Enjoy your new ride !
There are many other questions that we can answer with much more conviction. So, keep asking.
Mark

[mbzse]

.../...[inner] rear view mirror is black plastic.../...  Replaced along the way?

This type of all-black inner rear view mirror is the [substitute] replacement type offered from M-B today.
It was introduced in the seventies (W115/W123); thus not fully period correct for our Pagoda cars.
On late 250SL and 280SL the rear of the mirror blade was black plastic, the stem was chrome (see image attached). Stem had matte metal finish in the US.
See our Wiki Tech Manual under "Interior"
/Hans S

[martyd]

Mike,
Nice observation on the rear-view mirror!
As I said, I am brand new to this pagoda family, so I appreaciate folks' observations, comments and thoughts!
I wll try to get a hold of the data card.
Thanks!!!
Marty

[Iconic]

Marty,
As long as you asked ...
Your 2 piece wheel covers are correct for your 230 SL, but there should be some paint on there.
Also, your convertible top boot cover needs some interior color vinyl or leather (maybe???) on it with the body color.
Just look around the site for pictures and you will see what I mean for both comments.
Mark
Oh yea, your wipers look black and they should not be.
But, the metal on the lower fender, behind the rear tire looks original to me. A common place for rust, so that is a very good thing. At least if it was replaced, it was done with the correct features.

[66andBlue]

There is another close-up photo of a French mirror on a Pagoda in this thread:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=19107.msg133760#msg133760

[Rolf-Dieter ✝︎]

Hans, that is the way my rear view mirror looks on my 1969 280 SL

Dieter

[martyd]

Through the Pagoda group I came across Ger from Netherlands, who couple years ago published many years of brochures on Mercedes cars.  Great Guy!
http://www.oudemercedesbrochures.nl

While he never heard or had seen a mirror on the fender, he found one!

http://www.jamesedition.com/stories/cars/mercedes-benz-pagoda-1549

So, my saga continues 

[66andBlue]

Hi Marty,
your enthusiasm for this mirror location is infectious!
However, before you do something about it, please get your data card first and find out as much as possible about the final point of delivery, chassis and hardtop color, interior color and fabrics, and all the option that were installed by the factory.
Here is the information on data card: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/Start
study it intensely, your saga hasn't even started yet! 
A photo of a Pagoda with a mirror on the fender may be interesting but there are numerous photos out there showing a car with the correct part in the wrong location or the wrong part in the correct location.

[martyd]

Alfred,
Thank you for your thoughts and pointing me in the direction of the Data Card.
I got the data card from MB.  Very interesting! It is a US version car.  It's color is 190 (graphite grey).  My mom's cousin must have had it painted, but then the unpainted hubcaps???
But help me, I think I found something more interesting.  I think the car is not a 1964, but '63.  The VIN last six are 000358.  If I understand correctly after reading the link to the data card you gave me that the cars were numbered sequentially in their production models. So 230SL went from 000001 - 019832, and in "63 there were 1495 cars produced.  So am I correct to assume that my car, with 000358 likely is a '63 model year?
Thanks.
Marty

[Jordan]

Marty, according to the production numbers found here http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/USModelYear your car was built in September '63 (the VIN given for the month is the last one produced that month).  If it was a US destined car it would have been badged a '64 when it entered the US, pretty much the same way they do it today.  The data card will also list all the options for your particular car.  Now the fun begins in comparing your existing car with the one that left the factory.  How does the interior colour compare to the original?

[ejboyd5]

One of the options offered by M-B at the time was to supply mirror(s), packaged but not installed, contemplating the job to be done upon arrival at destination,  This option opens up all sorts of variation in mirror placement.  It would be interesting to check the inside of the door for evidence of prior installation in that location. 

[martyd]

Marcus and everyone,
You have been terrific with your help and expertise.
The data card is amazingly revealing. Yes, the original upholstery is red leather.  So that is original.  The paint is not, so I plan to change it back to the original graphite grey.
It is US version car and it was produced in Sept 1963. Was shipped with left side mirror.

I had asked my same questions to MB after they sent me the data card, re: door mirror vs fender and also the model year (I had not read about "model years and registration years" on the forum), and here is their reply:
Production date: September 1963, model year 1963
Side view mirror installed on drive's door.

So I think I am left with an incorrectly painted, 1963 230SL with the driver's side mirror in the wrong place !!! (Oh, also with the wrong rearview mirror and windshield wipers!)
I will work to make it right.

Again, many thanks everyone!!
Marty

[TheEngineer]

Attached is a pic of my Jaguar XK120 where it shows the mirrors installed on the fenders. The advantage is that there is less of a blindspot, the disadvantage is that they must be adjusted by another person. I have never had any problems talking a young woman into adjusting my mirrors.