Author Topic: 5-speed transmission (Read 31945 times)

hauser · « **Reply #25 on:** January 19, 2005, 20:02:39 »

I thought Norton was working on a replacement transmission?

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

rwmastel · « **Reply #26 on:** January 19, 2005, 20:50:21 »

quote:
Originally posted by rentsch1961

According to Meredith....

Alain,
This book has been proven to be not 100% accurate. It's not a bad book to use as a reference, just don't take it as a "Pagoda Bible", so to speak. The book most often thought of as the most accurate is "Mercedes-Benz 190 - 280 SL, Vom Barock zur Pagode" by Günter Engelen. It was only published in the German language, so many people around the World would need help reading it.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420

norton · « **Reply #27 on:** January 19, 2005, 21:41:03 »

Norton is working on mustang T5 swap, Looks like it will work, I have a eBay T5 sitting on the work bench. But I'v been working out of town for the last six months or so on my Boss's car, the Pontiac Solstice, (my boss is GM)so I'v had no time for my own 2 seater.

George Davis · « **Reply #28 on:** January 20, 2005, 09:43:30 »

Alain,

as Rodd suggests, I think Meredith is wrong about the G76/27-5 ever being fitted to Pagodas. I've "read" (in a rough sort of way) Engelen's book, and recall no mention of any 5-speed other than the ZF box. I have no idea how difficult it would be to fit the G76/27-5, but am surprise no one has tried it yet. I'd suspect that the transmission tunnel would have to be modified to make room for the linkage, but that's just a guess. Maybe that's why MB didn't fit it?

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

Douglas · « **Reply #29 on:** January 20, 2005, 10:52:26 »

I think Meredith was correct about the side-loader Getrag box being introduced in May of 1969 and was certainly available on 108. 109, 111 and 114 cars, but I don't believe the factory installed it in Pagodas.

I believe Hauser has a Getrag G76.27-5 installed, but I should ask him to confirm.

My question is did the 5-speed become unavailable in the W113 as of May 1969?

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

hauser · « **Reply #30 on:** January 20, 2005, 12:27:47 »

I honestly don't know which Getrag is installed on my car. We'll have to wait until I've have the car on a lift. I'll post the numbers and a pic if I don't forget to take the camera.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

pablo_o2 · « **Reply #31 on:** January 20, 2005, 13:08:40 »

The offer you mention here is only for the W126 W123 R107 type. I mailed Klaus and asked him about fitting a 5-speed of the R107 into the pagoda but he answered they do not support such action!

Paul Haems
'68 280SL

Douglas · « **Reply #32 on:** January 20, 2005, 13:42:20 »

Dan Caron: Can you tell us which trans Hauser has?

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #33 on:** January 20, 2005, 17:39:33 »

I don't know what kind of trans he has - think it has an aluminum case though.
I do know that the 113 only used the ZF 5 speed from all the liturature that I've read. It was installed as an option up to May 1969 and from then on it was only installed as a special request.
I think what this means is that you could buy one with this option as available right off the dealer floor until 1969. Some were built from 1966 until 1969 as regular production - most of which went to Italian dealers. They knew that the cars would sell easily in that market.
After May 1969 you had to order it and wait for the car to be built.

Daniel G Caron

ja17 · « **Reply #34 on:** January 20, 2005, 18:49:23 »

Hello,
I have never seen a W113 with the later "side shift rod" 5 speed in it.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

hauser · « **Reply #35 on:** January 21, 2005, 17:37:14 »

Just got off the phone with Jim Rowe of Metric Mechanic. He believes that the transmission in my car is a Getrag model 265. We came to this conclusion based on the fact my car went through a total restoration in 1980 and this Getrag was the only 5 speed available at the time. If you would like to check out their website; www.metricmechanic.com

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

n/a · « **Reply #36 on:** January 21, 2005, 19:59:06 »

I tried to follow up on this "Getrag" business and got nowhwere with it. The local dealer here in Texas did everything in his power to discourage me from buying it, including raising the price to beyond $7,000.00 USD and informing me that there would be no warranty on it if I put it in my 66 230 SL.

Mr.Rau at DaimlerChrysler seemed more than a little annoyed at my inquiries as well.

Mikey

pablo_o2 · « **Reply #37 on:** January 22, 2005, 02:58:17 »

I had the same feeling when I mailed Mr Rau. I think we better stop mailing to Mr Rau and all ask him the same questions. Any question regarding the 5-speed can be solved on this forum I think.

Paul Haems
'68 280SL

mdsalemi · « **Reply #38 on:** January 22, 2005, 08:50:31 »

Hi 5-speed Enthusiasts!

For my own car and personally, I don't have any real interest in the 5 speed; my car will never have it. Frankly I love my automatic on my touring car. However clearly it is something of interest to many. Since this mysterious (mysterious because he has not been formally introduced to us and we don't know who he is; only an email address) Mr. Rau seems to be annoyed by these inquiries, I suggest that SOMEBODY who has an active interest contact Tom Hanson. Tom is our friend and will get to the bottom of any questions regarding any Classic Center programs regarding any 5-speeds and will share it with the group.

One thing I miss about the Yahoo forum is the poll section. Since I'm amused by this thread of the 5 speed, (almost as much fun as the one on all red tail lamps) I'd be interested in knowing who prefers what and why.** In other words, is your interest:

1) ONLY in the original ZF 5-speed?
2) In EITHER the ZF or this GETRAG 5-speed?
3) In ANY 5-speed that could be retrofitted to the 113, including things like a domestic (USA) unit?

And would the interest be because of:

1) Rarity, exclusivity and originality?
2) Operation (reduced RPM at highway speed)
3) "Just because".

**my wife used to work in "Mix and Rates" at Ford where they had to calculate and forecast "take rates" for options such as a 5-speed so they could do proper manufacturing and procurement planning. That's why this kind of thing interests me. I was very amused once when Car&Driver suggested Ford had it all wrong when they planned a certain mix of V8/V6 for a certain Mustang...problem was they were production limited in V8 engines and couldn't allocate any more--so Car&Driver's suggestion of high take rates for the V8 were technically impossible.

For those interested in retrofitting ANY 5-speed, why stop at 5? Aren't there some nice 6-speeds available now? I know some Audi's come with them. ZF has one as well, though I don't really know anything about them.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

norton · « **Reply #39 on:** January 22, 2005, 11:46:29 »

Glad we amuse you Mike. I have no interest in the ZF box, Between the outrages price for a used trans and limited parts availibillty, it's a loser in my book. I'm only interested in a late model retrofit, I'm looking not only for the overdrive, but also the better gear ratio's of the late model 5 speed, the T5 used in Mustang's has a 3.35 first gear compared to the ultra low 4.05 of the MB 4 speed, as well as a better spread between the gears, for less RPM drop, and with a .68 overdrive it also has a deeper overdrive than the ZF 5 speed. Gear ratio's of the MB, ZF and T5 transmissions
...........................1st....2nd....3rd....4th....5th
MB 4 speed.........4.05...2.23...1.40...1.00
ZF 5 speed..........3.92...2.215..1.418..1.00.0.848
T5.......................3.35..1.93...1.29...1.00..0.68

I think the available 6 speeds are just to big to fit in the trans tunnel of the 113.

Malc · « **Reply #40 on:** January 22, 2005, 16:01:14 »

Mike,
I was day dreaming of the ferrari paddle shift box for the old girl, the problem I saw was turning the V12 around to move it from the centre of the rubbish F40 I have lying on bricks in the back of my shed

Dang there goes another pink elephant flying by......
Malc[:p]

mdsalemi · « **Reply #41 on:** January 22, 2005, 16:14:40 »

quote:
Originally posted by Malc

Mike,
I was day dreaming of the ferrari paddle shift box for the old girl, the problem I saw was turning the V12 around to move it from the centre of the rubbish F40 I have lying on bricks in the back of my shed

Dang there goes another pink elephant flying by......
Malc[:p]

Ahh, forget 5 and 6 speeds...why not go with a CV

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

n/a · « **Reply #42 on:** January 29, 2005, 10:22:28 »

Hello,
- Georges Des, where can we read Michael Egan's article on the ZF box?
- Is there some specific documentation about the ZF box such as a parts manual or on MB technical sheet?
Where to find that? Thanks.

alain

Benz Dr. · « **Reply #43 on:** January 29, 2005, 11:57:16 »

I actually have a repair manual for the ZF 5 speed. It's a copy ( and probably a translated one ) but it covers enough things that you can more or less figure out how t get it apart and then back together.
I can tell you this, it's not easy and I'd never try it without a maual. These are very durable units and will last forever if cared for properly. They only hold about 1 liter of trans fluid so I use a synthetic. Nothing inside of this box is like a regular 4 speed which is pretty basic by comparison.

Daniel G Caron

Mike Hughes · « **Reply #44 on:** January 29, 2005, 16:21:13 »

Michael Egan had articles in Issue #2 (March 1992) and Issue #8 (May 1994)of Mercedes Collector pertaining to the ZF 5-speed. The first article was on details of the transmission itself and the second was on fitting it to his 280SL.

- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)

n/a · « **Reply #45 on:** January 29, 2005, 18:10:44 »

Here we go again with Mr. Rau. Please, nobody ask Mr. Rau about the "special" at Mercedes, questions seem to put him in a bad mood.

Can a friendly group member please tell me about the Getrag and how I might get one that the dealer won't try to talk me out of or raise the price to 7K and cancel the warranty?

Mikey

George Des · « **Reply #46 on:** January 29, 2005, 21:17:46 »

Alain,

I have a copy of the article that Michael Egan wrote on the ZF 5 Speed. He also gave me a copy of the parts list for it. I was also able to get a new repair manual reprint from MIE, a Maserati Dealership in Portland,Oregon, USA. Their website is at the following URL: <http://maseratinet.com/SPARE_PARTS/Transmission.asp>

The manual covers both the ZF S5-20 box used in the 113s and the variant used in the Maserati. The main differences are in the rear cover plate and linkages to the gear shift lever. The S5-20 used in the 113 is synchromeshed in all gears including reverse! The Maserati variant as far as I can tell is not synchroed in reverse so the gear set up is also slightly different. I suspect this is the same manual that Dr Benz has. If I can figure out how to scan Michael's article into a PDF file, I'll send it along to you.

George Des

n/a · « **Reply #47 on:** January 30, 2005, 05:40:23 »

Georges,
Thank you very much for the infos. I have ordered the ZF repair manual from MIE right now.
Do you have a fax? If yes, it would pehaps be easier for you to fax me the article, but I can open PDF files too.
My Nr is: (++41) 22.789.71.39
Thanks again.

alain

George Des · « **Reply #48 on:** January 30, 2005, 08:00:21 »

Alain,

Send me your e-mail and I will try to figure out how to attach a file to my return e-mail to you--my e-mail is <barbgeo@aol.com>

George Des

n/a · « **Reply #49 on:** February 03, 2005, 10:50:10 »

The 5-speed trans listed at the start of this thread will not fit a W113. The one that will is out there somewhere for big money.

Tom Hanson in CA

News:

Author Topic: 5-speed transmission (Read 31945 times)

hauser

norton

George Davis

Douglas

hauser

Douglas

hauser

n/a

norton

Malc

n/a

n/a

George Des

n/a

George Des

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