Author Topic: More cold start valve issues (Read 22516 times)

Shvegel · « **Reply #25 on:** August 05, 2016, 09:12:07 »

I just found this. Sounds like some machine work is required but luckily you do not need to remove or recalibrate the pump. This guy spent a ton before he found the problem with his car.

http://samplestar.mbca.org/i/371608-sep-oct-2013/66

I am a firm believer in the the adage that everything happens for a reason. They increased the size of the bore of the outlet fittings later in the run. I am willing to bet they were having issues with the smaller fittings stripping out in the body of the pump. I would be very careful tightening your outlet fittings back to spec with a torque wrench and more importantly holding the outlet fittings in place with a wrench when you tighten the fuel line nuts.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #26 on:** August 05, 2016, 16:39:04 »

yes, that's a great tech session by Richard Simonds.

According to the article, leak-down on the R11 pumps is caused by the cone-valve's surface being worn such that it no longer seats sufficiently enough to hold pressure. At the end of the article Richard states that pressure valve assemblies for the R11 are no longer available and are not rebuildable. If that's the case, then why are there seals in the Bosch R11 kit? Would replacing the plastic seals alone (and not the cone valves) reduce the leak-down?
Sorry so many questions.....

Jonny B · « **Reply #27 on:** August 05, 2016, 17:48:59 »

Please note that there is an updated and expanded version of Richard's article in Pagoda Notes Volume 8 no.1.

Shvegel · « **Reply #28 on:** August 06, 2016, 11:25:51 »

Charles,
There is a remote possibility you could just change the seals and solve the problem but with a known history of worn delivery valves I would assume you probably won't. The Bosch seal kit is all of the seals you can replace without re-calibrating the pump and the delivery valve seals can also leak to the outside as well.

Jonny,
Thanks for the update!

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #29 on:** August 06, 2016, 12:23:48 »

aaahh, ok.

Jonny, thanks - I didn't realize this topic was addressed in the Pagoda Notes. I should be more attentive to what's available on this site.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #30 on:** August 06, 2016, 14:25:40 »

I've attached the illustration provided with Bosch Seal Kit F 026 T03 028 and item 16 (highlighted) is one of the six plastic seals.

In the illustration the cone-valve appears to be sitting/seated on top of the cap. If this is indeed the cone-valve it would appear that upon removal of the pressure valve housing, the cone valve could be easily accessed and simply re-lapped with the bottom cap.

Has anyone ever attempted this with an R11 pump?

wwheeler · « **Reply #31 on:** August 07, 2016, 19:00:18 »

#16 is the seal and there are six. That is not the same pump as the W113, so not sure you can draw an inference on the type of valve. The cone valve that is shown in the MBCA article is the same type as the CSV. Yes it can be lapped but, but not sure how long it would last. The CSV only operates when starting. The cone valve for the injector line is constantly moving. IE, the wear is much faster and greater.

BTW, where do you buy these seal kits? I noticed on the same Bosch site they have batteries and the NLA short fuel pump. Is that pump now reproduced or is this old? If available, where do you buy if in the US?

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #32 on:** August 07, 2016, 21:27:07 »

Wallace,
I've not bought the seal kit yet, I just followed the link Pat provided and downloaded installation instructions for the F 026 T03 028 Kit. Appears this kit may be used for a number of Bosch pumps including the R11. I've not been able to find the seal kit in the US,, I did find one on Ebay (in Latvia) http://www.ebay.com/itm/BOSCH-Fuel-Pump-Seal-Repair-Kit-F026T03028-/172235353971?hash=item281a06ef73:g:W6MAAOSwAYtWQgMt&vxp=mtr.

I can't answer your question about the Bosch battery or short fuel pump neither could I find the FIP seal kit on the Bosch USA website (https://www.boschautoparts.com/en). Looks like I'll be ordering the seal kit from Latvia.

Tyler S · « **Reply #33 on:** August 07, 2016, 23:25:32 »

Replacing the seals will not help with internal leak down. The needle and seat wear a ring around them from use. Lapping may work but its only a temporary fix. Would be like trying to lap a worn out intake valve. The valve and seat are steel. Not brass like the CSV. The wear inside causes the valve to hang up and the springs also lose their strength. I'm sure someone could re-machine them but if your going through the trouble you minus well machine the newer ball valves to fit. The circumference needs to be taken down. Here is a pic of one of my old cone style valves.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #34 on:** August 08, 2016, 03:19:12 »

Tyler, now i get it - as they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

You noted in an earlier string that you and Wallace both upgraded to the newer ball/seat check valves. Did you machine and install the check valves yourselves? Or were the upgrades done while your pumps were being rebuilt (ie. Pacific Fuel Injection)? Is it possible to get the check valves already machined to fit an R11 pump?

wwheeler · « **Reply #35 on:** August 08, 2016, 03:55:40 »

Quote from: Tyler S. on August 07, 2016, 23:25:32

The valve and seat are steel. Not brass like the CSV.

Good point. I had forgotten they were steel. Mercedes/Bosch used this same valve style on my old '60 220SE for the oil inlet check valve for the 2 plunger IP. So this cone design goes way back and no wonder it was finally upgraded.

Tyler S · « **Reply #36 on:** August 08, 2016, 06:13:30 »

Charles, I installed them myself. I salvaged already modified check valves from a damaged pump that I came across. I left the old seals in the new/old valves and got lucky with them not leaking externally. Since they had already been replaced when that mod was done on the junk pump. Any newer style r24 pump will have ball valves. You can find damaged unusable pumps fairly cheap n e-bay and harvest the valves. Then take all 6 to a machine shop with one of your old valve seats to match the diameter. Or if you know anyone with a lathe. Its pretty straight foreward to cut them down.

Shvegel · « **Reply #37 on:** August 08, 2016, 11:57:26 »

I think I bought my seal kit on Amazon UK and had it shipped to the US.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #38 on:** August 09, 2016, 21:26:37 »

Ok, thanks.

I take it that the seals in the Bosch Seal Kit will fit the new (machined-down) check valves. I'll let the group know how it goes.
thanks again for your help, Charles

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #39 on:** August 10, 2016, 12:54:38 »

I apologize if I'm belaboring this topic,, but I plan to upgrade my old R11 cone-valves to the newer R24 ball valves. Yesterday I removed the old cone valves and as suspected, they were worn sufficiently enough to cause leak-down. I've posted several pictures of the valves - unfortunately you can't see the worn surface of the cones very well. Pat (thanks!) graciously offered a tool to extract the valve seats and I'll be removing them as soon as the tool arrives.

wwheeler · « **Reply #40 on:** August 11, 2016, 03:00:22 »

Pictures like this are worth a thousand words. Thanks for posting.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #41 on:** August 13, 2016, 06:09:12 »

I've decided to go ahead and remove the FIP to replace the valve seals rather than try to tackle the job while the pump is still in the car. There's an oil leak in the governor section that I've been meaning to correct for several years now and this would be the perfect opportunity while I have the pump out

Does anyone know where I can source a Bosch seal/gasket kit for the governor section? thanks,Charles

wwheeler · « **Reply #42 on:** August 14, 2016, 03:49:33 »

You might see if Pacific FI will sell you the parts. Also Fairchild industries or H&R.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #43 on:** August 15, 2016, 00:44:23 »

Yes, I was going to give Robert at Fairchild Industries a call on Monday but I've since found the seal kit on the Bosch-Automotive-Tradition site:
http://bosch-automotive-tradition.com/media/automotive_tradition_1/teile_1/nachfertigungen/motor_2/dichtungssatz/F026T03032_F026T09014.pdf.

I've got a EP/RLA 1/1R governor on my pump and seal kit F026 T03 032 has all the seals I need. now to find the kit....

wwheeler · « **Reply #44 on:** August 15, 2016, 02:53:47 »

Are talking about #117 on the back plate? If so, I am pretty sure it, the side cover and bottom pump plate are molded to shape O-ring gaskets. In a pinch, you can take a larger diameter metric O-ring and cut it to that size. Regular super glue will totally glue split O-rings back together. Actually stronger than the rubber itself. I do it all the time.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #45 on:** August 15, 2016, 23:34:55 »

yes, #117 is one that I need, where can I get such a large O-ring?

wwheeler · « **Reply #46 on:** August 16, 2016, 04:24:07 »

If you know the section size (ie 2mm, 2.5mm etc), then you find the length (circumference) and calculate the diameter you need. McMaster should have what you need. http://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=13qt58y Select metric, Buna -N, and Multipurpose. Should be able to find it. The hardest part is determining the section size. O-rings are slightly taller than the depth of the machined O-ring groove. Usually around .020" or so. So measure the depth of the groove and add .020" (.5mm) and that should be the O-ring section.

Tyler S · « **Reply #47 on:** August 16, 2016, 17:30:09 »

Keep in mind the cover also likes to leak at the big threaded nut (or 2 hole plate) for the idle CO adjustment. The nut version has no seal or gasket. The plate version has a simple paper gasket. Both have a small o ring on the inner part of the adjustment screw. It is only sealed when the adjustment knob is in its "relaxed" out position. Constant adjustment will cause what you think is an oil leak.

Charles 230SL · « **Reply #48 on:** August 16, 2016, 19:13:45 »

yes, that tiny o-ring on the backside of the adjustment screw is easy to overlook.

I couldn't find a seal kit (F026 T03 032) anywhere for the governor. Naj checked (thanks Naj) and there's no stock in Germany nor are any kits being produced.

I asked Robert at Fairchild Industries where I could get a couple of the seals and he offered to send me what I need. He's a super nice guy and Fairchild has definitely got my business when I decide to have the pump rebuilt.

wwheeler · « **Reply #49 on:** August 17, 2016, 14:07:45 »

Quote from: Tyler S. on August 16, 2016, 17:30:09

Keep in mind the cover also likes to leak at the big threaded nut (or 2 hole plate) for the idle CO adjustment. The nut version has no seal or gasket. The plate version has a simple paper gasket. Both have a small o ring on the inner part of the adjustment screw. It is only sealed when the adjustment knob is in its "relaxed" out position. Constant adjustment will cause what you think is an oil leak.

Every time I do an idle adjustment, I always wipe the knob shaft with a rag. A guaranteed drop or two of oil gets on the rag. It will add up over time for sure. Robert is a great guy and rebuilt my 220SE two plunger pump.

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Author Topic: More cold start valve issues (Read 22516 times)