Original 1965 230sl

[cainboy56]

Recently purchased an original 230sl, unmolested car.  Built March 1965 and delivered in Germany to an American professor from
MO.  He I'mported it to Texas.  I am the fourth owner.  It is under restoration.  I have read most of the information in the tech manuals
about how early cars were appointed.  Following are some ways my car might differ.
Color, white, underside of trunk painted white.  Rockers are car color.  Side trim, only the lower section, 3 pieces, no pieces above only
folded metal. (I have seen this on only a few early cars)  Under doors only the long inside trim piece, the flat rubber and no outer trim
piece. (Place for the piece but never installed)  Wheel wells, rough material, dark grey.  The rest seems standard. As I mentioned before, as with some of my other antique cars of the '20's, '30's, '50's, and '60''s, many details are not standard and the factory took liberties.   

[DaveB]

The liberties were more likely taken by a prior owner.

[cainboy56]

Hi:  Some may have not read my original post on how factories operate, not that detailed.  I have 10 cars, one a three-time national winner.  From Feb to Sept, the factory used whatever they had left over and called it good.  I am in many clubs and am a judge in the Classic Car Club of America, also former Secretary.  I have researched all of my cars and the amendments were in every factory.
You could also order whatever you wanted within reason, especially on high end vehicles.  I have early pics of my 230 and it is as it was then.  I only mention this because I have heard people in every club say it's this way or wrong!  I simply say they are incorrect.

[waltklatt]

Hmm, can you share your earlier post about the factories?  I'm curious to the info.
Thanks

[perry113]

The liberties were more likely taken by a prior owner.

I agree.

[66andBlue]

.... From Feb to Sept, the factory used whatever they had left over and called it good.  I am in many clubs and am a judge in the Classic Car Club of America, also former Secretary.  I have researched all of my cars and the amendments were in every factory ....

We are always interested learning new details about our cars and factory operations. Most of us even change their opinions and convictions if provided with real evidence. So, "where is the beef" to proof that "the factory used whatever they had left over and called it good"?  I assume you are writing about Daimler-Benz and not Yugo (Zastava Automobiles), correct? 

[Tyler S]

Production changes did occur, however they were well documented by Diamler-Benz. These changes can be traced back and have been well preserved. They are available in past and future issues of "Pagoda Notes".
A change as major as a painted underside deck lid or lack of beltline moulding would surely have been documented. Either at the factory level or on a peticular data card. We have never seen this. As well as the fact no other cars owned by members have ever turned up this way. I understand your point but comparing 1933 Lincoln build practices to 60's Mercedes is apples and oranges.

(You really should add a link to your original topic so others know what you are refering to about the "Feb to Sept" thing regarding Lincoln)

[Benzo]

Interesting topic. Ill follow this thread for sure. It would be nice to see the Data Card.

Here is a link to his original post.   http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=24514.msg175250#msg175250

[Benz Dr.]

Full Classic cars were often one offs and hand built. During the 1930's wealthy people could afford these things given how many people who were out of work due to cheap labor. Our Pagodas are NOT classic cars despite the fact everyone calls them that. They are however, Milestone Cars, which no one seems to pay any attention to.

By 1963 assembly lines were pretty much fully automated and each car came out the same as the last one. Although there were constant changes being made on 113's most were mechanical in nature and not so much cosmetic. One or two small details on any given car may be possible but not major deviations from the norm and not several on one car.

MB simply doesn't operate like that. However, they are very capable of stubbornly holding on to some very anal policies.

[114015]

MB simply doesn't operate like that. However, they are very capable of stubbornly holding on to some very anal policies.

Cainboy56,

I can only fully support what Benz Dr. said.
In those days deviations from the normality (like missing chrome strips or so) where almost impossible by the factory. Unless it was a car specifically prepared for a show or Daimler-internal purposes or so.
The datacard would clearly point this out (Code 998 or equivalent together with the relevant built order document).
If you don't find those special codes:  "fuggetaboutit"! A 60ies Mercedes is NOT a 1930ies Lincoln or so.

Most likely the many preowners changed something in an "aftermarket"-like style.

Check your car carefully and you will find the holes for the missing chrome strips "filler-ed" in.

So, let's see what you have:

Color, white, underside of trunk painted white.  Rockers are car color.  Side trim, only the lower section, 3 pieces, no pieces above only
folded metal. (I have seen this on only a few early cars)  Under doors only the long inside trim piece, the flat rubber and no outer trim
piece. (Place for the piece but never installed)  Wheel wells, rough material, dark grey.

Color white:

-> ok, Code 050 or 717 on the datacard. See here:
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/DataCards

Underside of trunk painted white:

-> Incorrect. Should be black.
Scratch off some of the paint there; you will find some remaining black underneath. And some remnants of the primer paint runs.

Rockers are car color:

-> Incorrect. Typical sign of poor repaint quality where the shop (or the owner) did not know about the specialities of original Pagodas. Again: scratch off some white paint and you will find black/dark grey underneath

 

Side trim, only the lower section, 3 pieces, no pieces above only

-> Also incorrect. The brass chrome is surely missing on your car. Have never seen this on serial cars. On pre-series/prototype cars, yes, but not during serial production. Clearly, the holes had been plugged. Look closely from the inside. You will find 'em.

Under doors only the long inside trim piece, the flat rubber and no outer trim
piece.

-> Clearly missing. Sounds to me as if once your rocker panels were replaced in the past - most likely due to rust issues or so. If you take them off you should be able to find the little holes for the old/previous sheet metal screws that held on the outer chrome strip under the door.

It is under restoration. 

-> Very good. Then you can correct these faults now. Or have them corrected.

Good luck.
 

Achim
(done a lot of research on original cars)

[cainboy56]

Thanks everyone for your imput.  I still have a question on the side top trim pieces not on the car.  There are plugged holes inside but early pics show no top trim.  I have seen other 1965's without the trim.  Did a simple google search "1965 Mercedes 230sl sold."  Under images, there at least 3 cars without the trim, sold as original cars.  The Web sites for these were carandclassic.co.uk (merit cars),
findclassicars.com, classicpromenade.com.  It would be doubtful that all the 1965's were changed.  I have also seen others elsewhere.
I do not have the data cards so that is no help.  Thanks.

[Garry]

I have looked through your suggested sites at all the MB Pagodas and have not seen anything that has convinced me that there have been Pagodas produced with out items from the production line that would not be recorded on the data card.

You are easily able to get the data card via a request to the Mercedes Classic Center (Irvine California, Tom Hanson)  The full information for Tom is as follows.  an email is all that it takes)

 
Tom Hanson
Supervisor, Parts Operations
Mercedes-Benz Classic Center USA
MBUSA, LLC
9 Whatney
Irvine, CA 92618
949 598-4842 direct
949 598-4870 fax
Thomas.hanson@mbusa.com

He usually responds within a couple of days at no cost to you and is also a handy contact for parts at a discounted rate for Members.

Once you get the data card, please post on here as what you are suggesting goes contry to all our Group knowledge on these vehicles and information gained from Mercedes Benz over many years.

In anticipation
Garry

[john.mancini]

I would have to agree that your 65 has been altered prior to your ownership. I have never seen those types of factory "modifications" on W113's. MB factory changes to W113's are very well documented.

[Benz Dr.]

The moment I see the word '' Classic '' in any sort of advertising I know I'm looking at something that's probably run by hobos. Without a doubt, the most commonly used catch phrase or description used when it comes to old cars, '' classic '' means nothing today. Everything is ef'n classic today. 

 I tend to stay away from places that are selling old cars that have that on their shingle. You should too.

[Shvegel]

Speaking only to the missing trim I would expect to see the holes filled with lead if it were indeed a factory modification.  There are documented cases of cars being modified from stock by the factory(most typically paint color).   If memory serves doesn't someone here have a "Show Engine"  with chrome and polished aluminum from the factory. 

[john.mancini]

Someone struck Dan's "Classic Car" nerve. Dan, take two aspirin and go lie down! (You are absolutely right though, Dan).

[Benz Dr.]

Someone struck Dan's "Classic Car" nerve. Dan, take two aspirin and go lie down! (You are absolutely right though, Dan).

  Hehehehehe............ Some so called experts can't tell a Full Classic Car from Classic Coke.

In a recent conversation with a guy at a car show I pointed out that he didn't have a classic car. It was a '41 Willys coupe hot rodded to the max. A nice, well done car, but the fact it was highly modified excluded it anyways, even if it was. Not being entirely sure if it was Full Classic, I said it might have been but that everything else at the show was either Milestone cars or simply used cars.

He took offense of course. I told him to look it up on his Ipad, which he did, and it was there for anyone to see. He then called bull^%$& to which I replied that the ACCCA was formed in 1952, years before all these so called classics were even built.  '' You have a Milestone car, '' told him.

Then he said that there was such a thing as classic rock ( as if that was germane to the conversation  . Sure, I said, but it's not the same as Classical Music is it? There is a very big difference.


What was I saying about hobos?

( actually a very skilled guy who hand builds guitars but like most street rodders he doesn't know automotive history )