280SL Restoration in Georgia

[Howard Long]

Greetings from Marietta, Georgia

My name is Howard and I have a 1971 280SL under restoration on a rottisserie in my basement garage.  I am a fairly new member to the Pagoda SL Group.  I have made several posts concerning my project but I am going to start a new thread of messages to give a better picture of where I am and how I got to this point. I have been following other current projects by ScottCorvette on a 230SL and Joel on a 280SL and was encouraged to share a little more of my project.  This is not meant to say I have followed the best route or always made good decisions along the way,  I have certainly made my share of mistakes. 

I have been a car nut all my life starting with building a channeled 1931 Model A Ford to run on the street and as a B Altered at the drag strips in Iowa.  It was Buick powered with a Packard 3-speed transmission, built for a total cost of less than $600 and ran the quarter mile in about 14 seconds in 1958.  That was followed by a short wheelbase A-Gas Dragster, built for less than $1200 that ran the quarter at about 150 mph and in the low 9 seconds in 1961.

Life followed that with a degree in Mechanical Engineering and then 5 years in the US Air Force followed by a career as a pilot with Delta Air Lines.  I have had several interesting cars and then a few not so interesting.  1949 Hudson, 1955 Chevy V-8, 1963 Volvo P-1800. 1963 Renault Dauphine, 1962 Chevy Corvair, 1963 Karmann Ghia, 1964 Ford Galaxie 500XL, 1968 VW Squareback Sedan, 1970 Pontiac Lemans, 1975 Lancia Beta, 1980 Mercedes 300D coupe, 1980 BMW 735 5-Speed, 1990 Infinity Q-45, 1995 BMW 540i 6 Speed and now my driver is a 2008 BMW 335i convertible. I have done most of the maintenance work on all these cars over all these years, even when most everyone else just takes their car to the shop.  Most recent project was to replace the rear axle bearing on the 335i.

My Pagoda is a 1971 280 SL, 4-speed, which I purchased in 2001 with about 155,00 miles, a great paint job and some rust holes in the floor. If I had been really knowledgeable I would not have bought that car with all the rust problems but exterior looked great and the price was right.  I have included a few photos taken from 2001 that show that it was a very nice car. 

I really could have used the expertise of this group before I purchased this car,  there were many signals that I missed at the time that I should have seen.  At some time in the distant past, someone did a very poor redo that included a nice paint job and a coverup of the rust problems with some new sheet metal under the rusted frame rails. Then they thoroughly undercoated to cover everything. This car was painted Tunis Beige at the factory but the new paint was a gold metallic that was close but did not quite match the original color.  As you can guess, they did not respray the hardtop, the dash, the door pillars or the horseshoe panel over the soft top but I did not notice that at the time.

I will continue this Thread if there is enough interest.  Maybe I can help someone else avoid some of the errors that I have made.

Howard
71 280SL 4-speed

[dpreston Virginia]

Howard,
Thanks for sharing your project. Please keep the group informed with lots of photos and descriptions.
This is the best kind of post. You will get lots of suggestions and help others who are restoring their Pagoda!!
Cant wait to follow your journey!
David

[Raymond]

We're always pleased to hear about new members and new projects.  Many of us jumped into a Pagoda without a lot of knowledge.  For me, the discovery is part of the challenge.  Having the experts on this panel in you corner allows for many fewer frustrating moments.  We'll look forward to seeing your car when you get it on the road.

[Cees Klumper]

" a short wheelbase A-Gas Dragster, built for less than $1200 that ran the quarter at about 150 mph and in the low 9 seconds in 1961"

Respect ... 

Please do continue sharing, great to see how you are coming along and for sure your experiences will help others

[Scottcorvette]

I'm sure you will find this forum as invaluable as I have Howard

Let's see some more pictures!

[Howard Long]

Thanks guys for your encouragement, I will give you a little history after I purchased the 280SL.

My 280SL was purchased in Atlanta from a United Airlines Flight Attendant who really knew very little about the car.  This was right after the events of 9-11 and the owner was fearful that United Airlines would go bankrupt, so he was selling his toy before he was unemployed.  I offered him about half of what he had advertised the car for and he took my offer.  I must have offered too much, he would have probably taken even less.   One insight that the previous owner shared with me is that even with the manual transmission, he always used 2nd gear to start moving.  I asked why he did that and he said that if the automatic transmission used 2nd gear in Drive to get going he would do the same thing with the manual 4-speed.  I wondered how long a clutch would last.

I have the data cards for the car but I really have no other records on the past history or past owners.  I understand that the MB Classic Car Center USA can provide some info but I have not had the time to reach out to them.  I have visited the Classic Car Center in Stuttgart a couple of times, wonderful place but I have not been to the facility in Irvine.

My car was not safe to drive when I bought it in 2001 mainly due to brakes, one front brake caliper had seized and that had worn the brake pad down to metal on metal with the brake disk.  Other brakes were marginally better so my first tasks were to replace the entire brake system including master cylinder, all calipers, brake disks, all hoses, emergency brake shoes and some of the metal lines. The longer brake lines to the back axle and from the master cylinder to the right front wheel were deferred until later due to inaccessibility.

The next order of business was to replace the thermostat and all water hoses including the heater hoses.   No problems there except for that short hose between the water pump housing and the thermostat housing which Bud’s Benz lists as the By-Pass Hose.  It can be changed without removing either of those housings but it can be a challenge.  I also changed the fan belt and installed a new set of Michelin tires.

The next task was to do something about the holes in the floor board where you your see the concrete if you pulled up the carpet.  At the time I was ready to drive my toy and I was not ready for solving the rust problems.  Thus I installed a temporary patch to the floor with some galvanized metal, pop rivets and sealant to keep the water out.  Not very elegant but with the carpets back in place it looked fine and it did the job for over 10 years. I have enjoyed the car mainly in the local Atlanta area, only a couple trips out of town.

I had a couple of continuing problems that kept me from using the car more.  First the engine at 155,000 miles was using some oil and it would foul the spark plugs after only a couple hundred miles.  I guess that I could have tried the non-fouling type of spark plugs but I never got around to that.  The other thing that I did not enjoy was that with the hardtop off, the exhaust noise was very loud at highway speeds and about 4000 rpm.  Part of that was the old exhaust system but a good part was just the high rpms.  In Georgia, we get used to the air conditioner being on and the windows rolled up most of the year, so we get used to cool and quiet in our daily drivers.  Also I know that as I have aged and my hearing has changed, noise does bother me more.

Well enough for today, this was just a bridge to bring you up to the point when I made the decision to start work on the car, so no photos today but I promise more in the future.

Howard
71 280SL 4-speed

[neelyrc]

Great start with the background information Howard.  Looking forward to seeing your continuing narrative and progress photos.

By the way, in the pictures above there is a Zoll plate on the front of the car.  Was it there when you bought the car and does it appear to be an original or a reproduction? If an original, perhaps the car was delivered to the first owner at the factory.

[Howard Long]

Ralph,

Great idea but that is a new reproduction plate that I put on after I bought the car.

Howard
71 280SL 4-speed

[G$ 993]

Great introduction.  Please keep the thread updated for us!  I have a 1970 SL which is currently getting a new engine build following a seize.  When that is done I hope to tinker with the car myself and will be turning to threads like this to find answers to my questions!

[JonathanB]

Welcome to the group and thank you for sharing your story.  Please keep us updated on your progress.

[Howard Long]

Thanks for the interest. I posted most of this info earlier in response to John who was looking to purchase a Pagoda.  This information may help others know what the lack of routine maintenance can cost in the long term.

If I had had more experience in these cars I would have looked closely at these two items when I first looked at my car.  I did know that there was rust in the floorboards on each side but I did know realize that the rust had also invaded the frame rails.  My advice to John was that I would take a good look at the rust in the floor.  Two things that I learned that I should have known to look for:

   1.  Has the car been undercoated?

   2.  Check the two hoses under the dash that connect the air box drains with the tubes that take rainwater back into the engine compartment. The cooling air that enters the scoop in front of the windshield naturally includes rainwater and that air/water mixture goes directly into the air box if air valve is open. (maybe even if the valvet is closed the water may still get in).  That rainwater has to go somewhere.  The drains in the bottom of the air box are connected by hoses to tubes that go thru the firewall and dump that water into the engine compartment and then onto the ground.  If these two hoses have not been maintained, those hoses will deteriorate and then break with the rainwater going directly into the front floorboard carpet on each side.  The floorboard carpet is an ideal place for rust to grow un-noticed until it rusts thru the floor.  When the rust in the floorboard finally goes thru the floor  it might get noticed.  Then some less than enlightened soul might think that undercoating might help.

Why did I mention undercoating?  That had happened many years ago in my 280 SL and someone had obviously noticed the rust and had the car undercoated to stop the rust.  Rather than helping the rust problem it actually made it worse.  The two hoses from the air box had never been maintained so when the car was undercoated and the bottom was sealed, that left no place for the rain water to escape.  The water just stayed on the floor under the carpet and the rust spread into the side frame rails. Once the water had rusted into the frame rails, the water and the rust continued in both frame rails from front to back.  As many have said, I should have looked deeper before I bought the car with rust.
 
If any of you has not thought about those two little hoses, I would encourage you to take a look and see if they need replaced.  They are only about 5 inches long  with clamps on each end.  They are relatively easy to get to, if you don’t mind being on your back in the floorboard.  I fixed the hoses on my 280SL soon after I got the car but I did not know of the extent of the rust damage until I took it apart 2 years ago.

The damage was clearly caused from inside rainwater that collected under the carpets and migrated into the frame rails.  I have had to replace the side rails, the frame rail patch panels and all floor panels on both sides.  The cost for just the replacement parts from K & K has been nearly $4000 and I have no idea what the labor cost would have been.  I am about 60% done and have learned more about welding and metal work that I really wanted to know.  I thought that a rotisserie was a way to cook meat until I got into this project.

While I am talking about undercoating I would share that most if not all media blasters cannot effectively remove undercoating.  I have spent days and weeks removing the undercoating just to locate the rust damage.  I know that there are some products that claim to remove undercoating but when that undercoating has been there 20 years or more, it is much more like concrete.  Nothing I found really gets it off except scraping and the powered wire brush. 

Now that I have the car apart and have started cleaning up the chassis components, there is undercoating overspray on nearly everything.  You are quickly cleaning a part with the media blaster and there are several areas where it looks as if the black paint just will not come off.  Guess what, it is back to the scrapers and wire brush to remove patches of undercoating before I can finish blasting and get the parts rust protected and painted.  There has to be a special place for anyone who would undercoat a Pagoda!!!!

Just something you might want to think about.  I will get back to the restoration stuff next time but I thought I would get this out.

I am posting some photos from Motor World about 10 miles from the Mercedes plant south of Stuttgart, Germany.  One photo shows me on the floor looking under a green Pagoda.  I had serious questions how the floor panels should look like because mine were too destroyed with rust.  I included a visit to Motor World on the way to Switzerland just to look at a few Pagodas.  Fantastic place to spend a day or longer.  The hotel on the complex is named the V-8 Hotel.

Howard
71 280SL 4-speed

[Jonny B]

When you change the hoses from the air box (excellent point) be sure to also check that the drain lines are fully clear. When we replaced the hoses in a friends car, one of the tubes leading to the outside of the cabin was plugged solid.

[Howard Long]

Jonny,

You are correct, I should have mentioned to check the inside passage being clear of both debris and rust on the drain tubes from the air box and also tubes that carry the water thru the firewall.  These tubes are steel and will rust if not maintained.

Since my car is on a rotisserie in the basement, I have enclosed photos of these drains without hoses.

Howard

[Howard Long]

Hello Again,

I will get back to a more orderly discussion of how I got started in this 280SL restoration soon but I think that I will spend a little time on a subject that ScottCorvette and I have been having concerning fit of some reproduction parts.  The part we have both had problems with is what SLS calls the Frame Rail Repair Section and K & K calls the Frame Rail Patch Panel.  This piece is designed to repair the transition area between the Frame Rail and the curved frame section that goes over the rear axle.

The problem that both Scott and I have had trouble with is the upper flange of this reproduction part that should join with the Inner Wheelhouse just aft of the B pillar.  When you remove the carpeted wooden sections behind the seats you can see where the top of this section joins the curved inner wheelhouse.  Thus if you try to replace this entire section you have to cut thru to the interior of the car, either just the patch panel or the patch panel and part of the inner fender.  The first photo is this area still intact on the driver’s side

I purchased the reproduction patch panel for both the left and the right side from K & K and made the assumption that I should remove most of the existing panel and that there would be not problem with fitting in the new piece.  What I did next made the task harder, I also removed the lower 9 to 10 inches of the inner wheelhouse.  The problem was not in installing this repair panel; the real problem was in recreating the inner wheelhouse to meet the new panel.  The upper flange of the new panel just did not meet the inner wheelhouse by as much as 5 to7 mm in places.  After several tries without satisfactory results, I finally had to segment the flange of the new panel and rebend each segment to meet the curve of the wheelhouse.  Not what I really expected, increased work and a much poorer result.  Photo 2 shows how I segmented the flange.  Photo 3 shows the repair to the Wheel Well.  Photo 4 shows the Wheel Well complete.  I will put a few more photos of the inside of the patch panel in my next post.

Scott had a similar problem and he attacked it a little differently.  He was smart enough to leave the inner wheelhouse intact.  Then he cut the top of the repair panel, moved it over to meet the inner wheelhouse and them welded in additional metal to complete the top of the repair panel.  He made a better choice but I think that both of us would like to start over in this section.

When I moved to the other side of my car, I set out to replace only the lower part of the repair panel and took special care not to cut into the interior of the cabin as you can see in Photo 1, this interior is intact..  I only removed that part of the wheelhouse that had rust damage or had to be removed to replace the Frame Rail.  This accomplished the same result with less work.

I will be the first to admit that I am the novice in working on this car but I now see that I could have made better decisions if I knew then, what I know now.  I think that the Engineer in me got ahead of good sense at times.  Knowing that I was going to need to put my car on a rotisserie to get to some of the rust and I was going to replace the entire Frame Rail on each side, the Engineer put in strong reinforcements to maintain the geometry of the car while I cut out and replaced the Frame Rails.  This worked and I have the doors back on and they fit just fine but I admit I could have had a problem with the fit of the doors.

However, while the rust in my car was extensive, it really extended only 1 to 2 inches above the bottom of the Frame Rail.  If I had known that SLS sells a repair panel for just the lower half of the Frame Rail for about 100 Euros, I could have avoided any risk to the geometry of the car and produced the same results with less work and money.

I mention this because I know only a few of you are dumb enough or maybe courageous enough to learn these things in the manner that I have.  Most body shops will certainly want you to do a complete replacement of the Frame Rails with rust like my car, it puts more money in their pockets.  The question is do you want other potential problems to deal with later. To replace the entire Frame Rail may involve replacing the bottom rear of the Front Fender, the lower front of the rear fender, detaching and reattaching the bottom of the “A” pillar and the “B” pillar and put the geometry of the car in jeopardy so the doors do not close properly.  However, if your car does not have rust in the lower parts of the fenders and the rust is only in the bottom of the Frame Rail, there may be a better solution.  I think it is worthwhile to identify the real problem and replace only what needs to be replaced to achieve the best end result.  I was much too aggressive in removing more than I should have.

Howard
71 280SL 4-speed

[Howard Long]

Here are a few more photos of the Frame Rail Patch Panel effort.  Photo 1 is the patch panel and fender repairs in progress, not very proud of that one.  Photo 2 is the completed repair on the interior, passenger side. 

On of the toughest tasks so far has been to create the patch panel for the lower fender between the passenger's door and the right wheel well.  There was rust damage to the bottom of the fender that had to be repaired.  I could have purchased a reproduction panel for the lower half of the full right rear fender but I decided I could make that part.  I did learn a few new skills, had to buy a metal Stetcher but I got it done.  It is basically a very simple part but it involves a straight bend on the right side, a bend with a curve on the wheel well side, a triple bend on the bottom with shapes to fit the Rocker panel and the whole panel curves slightly from top to bottom. 

The Engineer in me just had a field day trying to figure out how to do all those things.

If I had any real sense I would have bought the reproduction panel and threw away what I did not need, it would have saved a lot of time.

Photo 3 is in progress and photo 4 is complete.

Enough for tonight.

Howard
71 280SL 4-speed

[Scottcorvette]

I since found out that the chassis rail in its entirety is available as a genuine part from Mercedes but is around £600, it would also be a massively invasive job to replace it by the looks of it. I'm not sure that most professional shops would choose to go that route, I looked very hard at mine when I was having problems with it and wondered about changing the whole frame rail, but it looks like a monstrous job and probably more than is sensible for the amount of rust I had.

Unfortunately my rust extended to the sides and top of that chassis rail so I had little or no choice but to replace the front section, I also needed to get access to replace the rocker on that side. The other problem that I am going to have is that my rear seat crossmember doesn't meet up with this new chassis section very well. I'm having to deal with each problem as it comes in this corner, I know they are coming because I mocked it all up at the start, but felt I was best tackling one thing at a time. I just hope it doesn't bite me further down the road.

In hindsight I'd have looked big and stumped up £600 for the right part, I still would have only used what I needed though.

[Howard Long]

Scott,

As you know I did buy and replace completely both Frame Rails and it was a real pain.  I had to quit several times because I just did not know how to proceed.  Each time the Engineer in me figured out what I had to do next and I would start again.  Finally I got both Frame Rails done but not without many trials and tribulations. I admire you for seeing thru the fog and only replacing just what you needed to.

I did find that I had moved the bottom of the "B" pillar on the passenger side a little while installing the Frame Rail and I had to redo that before I finished the complex fender panel behind the passenger door.

It was pure joy when I replaced the doors and they still fit.

Howard

[Scottcorvette]

I think you are referring to the rocker there? I did both of mine as complete units too.

I was referring to the chassis rail that runs from the rear seat area to the back of the car. I think replacing them as a whole or in pieces wouldn't have been straight forward.

[Howard Long]

I think that we are just confused with the English language.  I think of the Rocker Panel as that decorative piece that is put on with screws.  You think of the rocker as the two piece main structural member that goes from the front wheelwell to the rear wheelwell and under the doors, that I think of as the Frame Rails.  I replaced both pieces of the Frame Rails on both sides even though I could have done less if I had made better decisions.

We will see how it goes with both cars.

Howard

[PIP1947]

"This car was painted Tunis Beige at the factory but the new paint was a gold metallic that was close but did not quite match the original color.  As you can guess, they did not respray the hardtop, the dash, the door pillars or the horseshoe panel over the soft top but I did not notice that at the time."

Hi Howard

I think you are fortunate that previous owner did not respiratory the hardtop and dash, especially the latter. MB Tunis Beige Metllic is magnificent and your car will look a lot nicer if/when you return it to its original colour. I was looking for a white or cream 230SL when I bought my Tunis Beige 280 unexpectedly, at auction. I quickly came to appreciate what a beautiful colour it is and, best of all, how little it shows the dirt and dust. I rarely need to wash my car. I am amazed at the extent of your rust, given that it all emanated from the front floor. Quite incredible. It sounds much more like the kind of rust you expect from salt on the roads. Are you sure the water is not getting in somewhere else? Anyway, I wish you luck and look forward to reading more of your posts.

Regards
Pip 1947

1968 280SL auto Tunis Beige Metallic

[Howard Long]

I agree that your Tunis Beige car is beautiful and I understand how it does not show dirt like some other colors.  However, I think that I shall change the car paint color to Signal Red.  It is my intent to pass my car on to my oldest son in a few years and he is a huge fan of the University of Georgia which (guess what) has Red as their primary color.  Since the car is now a rottiserie for major rust repair, there is very little of the Tunis Beige that has not been messed with at this point. 

I plan to cover in a post soon what I found when I took the floor apart. Briefly soon after I bought this car in 2001, I discovered that the drain hoses from the air box appeared to be completely  original.  They had deteriorated to the point that all water in the air box went onto the floor.  I replaced those hoses then but I did not know the extent of the rust damage at that time.   Before I removed the carpet for the present restoration, I knew that there were rust holes thru the front floor but I did not know about the rust holes thru the side of Frame Rails in the front floorboard area.

When I cut into the frame rails I found the rust in the bottom of each rail from front to back.  That rust obviously started inside the rail and worked its way out rather than rust damage from road salt that would start on the outside of the rail and work its way in.  That lead me to believe that the water came in thru the air box to the floor, thru holes in the side of the rail and then fully into the rail. I wish that I had made photos of the inside of the Frame Rails but I did not.

Thanks for your interest and I will get more info and photos out soon.

Howard
71 280SL 4-speed

[Howard Long]

It has been a while since I have have posted to this topic.  My wife was in the hospital and that lead me to do less on the Pagoda.

A couple of months ago I was cleaning out the left front wheel well in my Mercedes.  Among other dirt, undercoating and other stuff was a big wad of Bondo.  When I took the Bondo out I found that it had finish paint on the outside and left quite a hole in the grill.  My challenge has been how to recreate that piece of sheet metal.  My first question was how to replace the Bondo with good old steel.  It is easier to fix a hole in a flat panel but the three-dimensional aspect of this area was a challenge.

I was baffled by that problem and made 3 or 4 attempts to fix the hole with only sheet metal.  When that failed I changed course and recreated the lip of the hole with solid rod about the right radius for the lip.  Then I made the rest of the fix with 3 different pieces of sheet metal.  With it welded up and ground it down, it is very close to the original.  With the help of a good body man it will be near perfect.

I am attaching several photos that I hope will make some sense.  As you can tell it took several days or weeks to get it done.  It will take two post for the photos.

[Howard Long]

Here are some more photos on my Rust Hole.

Howard

[BaronYoungman]

Howard I am in awe. Anytime you are trying to do something in 3 dimensions with no template or left over metal to gauge depth  to me seems like an impossible task.  Your patience and determination are inspiring, great job!

[Charles 230SL]

looks great Howard! Looks like you may have missed your divine calling in life, even with all those type ratings!