Am I Stirring up trouble?

[mdsalemi]

quote:This site and this Group were established as a source of information relating to the Mercedes W113 cars and to help maintain, restore, exhibit, and promote the ownership and admiration of these cars among the international community of W113 enthusiasts.

Gents, Now matter how you interpret the mission of our group as quoted above, you can apply the same kind of logic to both Dorian Garson's pagoda113.com and the old Yahoo group started by Rodd.  At the risk of stirring up trouble or asking that which has been asked before, for my own benefit and the benefit of perhaps newer members, I'd like to know why "we" (113 owners in general) have three "internet clubs" with ostensibly the same purpose.  It seems to me there is a duplication of effort at minimum, which can lead to good information being lost to history, and not having as advanced involvement as we could.  For something as specialized as a club or group focusing on one model of somewhat limited production, we are losing something.  It is hard enough to keep up with one site, but to keep up with three is a time sink.  Just today I noticed a few posts on these three sites which seem to be complete duplicates of one another; that's exactly what I'm talking about.

There must be some politics involved for I'll admit that for some reason despite my best efforts, I'm not always in the loop on things.  For example, while a very active contributor to the old Yahoo site, even meeting Rodd once when he had a training session in Michigan, this group was conceptualized and implemented and I didn't know about it until someone told me in person at Joe Alexander's tech session in 2003!  Yet, I was "in" on the old Yahoo group shortly after it was created.  I had obtained my car in 1999; sent it to the restorer in May of that year, and thus began the journey of using the internet to ferret out all the information required to take a car from the crusher to show class restored.  By the time the Yahoo group got off the ground, most of the planning and execution of my restoration was well underway, and I had already researched the vendors and knew where everything was going to be completed.  Of course, shortly after the Yahoo group was formed, I discovered it and joined.  I did not become an active member of this group until sometime after it was formed because I simply didn't know about it!  There were clearly a lot of things I missed by simply "taking time off" during the winter of 2002/2003 when my car is asleep in the garage.

I do know this: Dorian's initial group was founded as an experiment.  He had joined the Yahoo group, and was, quite ironically, working for a new company that created group software.  When the Yahoo group began to mature and the limitations of its free software emerged, as part of his job Dorian created pagoda113.com.  All the other people in his company did something identical for things in their own interest.  The company didn't survive, but Dorian did; landed at Microsoft, and kept pagoda113.com but on different software.

I also know, from the list of board members of sl113.org that all of these guys were active in the Yahoo group.

While we can't and don't have any control over what Dorian does, and at the risk of stirring up trouble, are there more politics and egos involved here that prevent us from "shutting down" the Yahoo site and bringing those members into the fold here?  I have focussed on this group now because it seems to be the best and most active, and again, it's a time sink to actively participate in three different groups with quite similar missions.  Yes Dorian's is more commercial, but that's one way we do hear about products and services.  The MBCA's STAR was one of the best resources I've had--mostly for the commercial advertisements.

I'd be astounded if I was the only person to have thought of this, so I ask: Does anybody have any thoughts on the subject?

Added Note:  Dorian Garson's site is www.pagoda113.com  This site of course is www.sl113.org and the final site which was the predecessor but still exists is the yahoo site http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/W113/

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Ed Cave]

Michael:

I too, have wondered about this. Pagoda113.com and this site, sl113.com seem to be quite redundant. Is there also a third one as you suggest in your post?

While I review the postings on both of those sites, this is the only one I actively 'interact' with.

Perhaps Rodd, Douglas or Cees could enlighten the rest of us and help us understand why and give us the real history behind this.

I don't think you are stirring up trouble, but then I may not know as much about all of this as I should.

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA

1964 356C
1971 280SL

[TheEngineer]

I have also had the same thoughts (heresy - heresy)and did ask the same question last week. But as Dr.Phil said: Men are motivated first by ego, next by sex or money.

'69 280SL,Signal Red,007537,tired engineer, West-Seattle, WA

[hauser]

"The W113 Pagoda SL Group is a not-for-profit international club dedicated to the celebration and preservation of the 230 Sl,250 SL and 280 SL."

"The words "not-for-profit" need to be stressed here.  The Club was founded by 11 enthusiastic Pagoda owners in the U.S., Netherlands, Spain and Germany, all of whom choose to make their livelihood outside the Club.  Consequently, this is a club in the best sense of the word - its entire reason for being is to celebrate and preserve the Pagoda SL. Period."

This is an excerpt taken from the welcome letter I received after joing the club as a paid member.  I don't think you will find such a statement on either the Yahoo site or Dorian's site.

Sorry if I offend anyone but I call 'em as I see 'em.  This site is on fire!  It is more active than Dorian's and the Yahoo put together! No dought about that.  I say keep all 3 going and stick to the one you like the best.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

[Ed Cave]

How do I find the Yahoo site? Never been there.

Ed Cave
Atlanta, GA

1964 356C
1971 280SL

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by hauser

"The W113 Pagoda SL Group is a not-for-profit international club dedicated to the celebration and preservation of the 230 Sl,250 SL and 280 SL."

"The words "not-for-profit" need to be stressed here.  The Club was founded by 11 enthusiastic Pagoda owners in the U.S., Netherlands, Spain and Germany, all of whom choose to make their livelihood outside the Club.  Consequently, this is a club in the best sense of the word - its entire reason for being is to celebrate and preserve the Pagoda SL. Period."

This is an excerpt taken from the welcome letter I received after joing the club as a paid member.  I don't think you will find such a statement on either the Yahoo site or Dorian's site.

Sorry if I offend anyone but I call 'em as I see 'em.  This site is on fire!  No dought about that.  I say keep all 3 going and stick to the one you like the best.

1969 280sl 5 spd        1999 ML320          Gainesville,Fl.

Note that the Yahoo site WAS the predecessor to this one!  Rodd Masteller was instrumental in both.  Dorian does not make a living off of his site; and note we all have jobs (or are retired)!  But there is a lot of crossover and to me that's wasted time and or redundent efforts neither of which are efficient.  I'm not sure what's gained by duplicate posts on these sites and that the nature of my query.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Tom]

Michael,

Yes, you probably are stirring something up, but I understand how people could wonder about the various sites.  Hauser is right in that this Group (not a club), is a not for profit.  The other site run by Dorian is run for a profit.  That is ok, and is not the principal difference.  The principal difference is in control.

I have been involved from day one and can speak with first hand knowledge why the Pagoda community has become somewhat fragmented.

This Group is intended to be an evergreen source of information for these cars.  One person cannot shut down this site and decide that since they sold their car, they are no longer interested in running the site.  This group is run by a Board that is elected by its full members.  The Group has a charter and elects 1/2 of the board annually.

The other site is a one man show that could go away if that one person decides they are no longer interested in these cars.  All of that knowledge contributed by thousands of posts would also be lost.

It is hard for one person that controls everything to cede control over to a voting majority, so those talks were not fruitful.  From Dorian's standpoint, why would he cede control over a profitable venture?  Dorian has been a good steward over the other site and I respect his position.  An important goal as the board of the W113 Pagoda SL Group is to ensure that the knowledge is in control of many people, not just one person.  That was why this group was founded.

Hope this is helpful.



1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)

[n/a]

I agree with Hauser on this one. Of course there should be 3 or even 4, 5, 10 or more Pagoda sites. Read and stick to the ones you like. Don't have time, sorry sounds like a personal problem.  What if there was only 1 newspaper or TV station, that's why they invented the remote control.

"Seven days without pizza makes one weak".

[J. Huber]

Here's my take (and sorry it is long)... It's kind of like hardware stores in my little town. The Ace hardware store and the True Value hardware store are maybe 2 miles apart. And not far away is a Best hardware outfit. They all have pretty much the same types of stuff. Yet, I go to all of them on any given day. One I prefer for landscaping supplies, while another for paint stuff. But again I mix it up here and there. The Proprietors at each place are good old boys -- and I like them all. Moreover, it is not uncommon for me to see friends at one place -- and then at another. That's half the fun of shopping.

Now, the question is -- why not combine all of them to avoid redundancy and overlap? A one-stop shop? Well, problem is each of these stores has its own character and its own proud history. Which brings us to Pagodas...

The Yahoo site in its heyday was great and really inspired the 113 world to get interactive. That's about when I figured out that others shared my passion for these little cars. Then there was the 113owners@mbz.org list headed by the venerable Benz Dr. Again this was great info and much easier for those with limited Internet access. Along comes Dorian. I loved his site -- partly for the layout and pictures! but especially because it brought even more owners together. Some I recognized and some I didn't. Before long, the movement was underway to create this site. Same thing -- more new names, several old friends, and lots of tremendous information. What could be better? Competition and choices can be good things (especially for the consumer).

Bottom line for me is that I can usually find what I need for my car at my fingertips. The fact that there are two or three "hardware stores" right around the corner suits me just fine. Afterall, That's half the fun of shopping.


James
63 230SL

[n/a]

Having gotten the gist of this subject by reading several but not all of the e-mails in this string, I have my own comments and questions.

I agree with the assertion that having for-profit, not-for-profit, centralized control and decentralized control based organizations works well to spread the risk that would normally be present with a single monolithic 113 club. Politics notwithstanding, it seems to me that any thought of combining one or more clubs is really an expression of the desire to expand the pool of information and simplify the process of finding it.

Why can't we retain the value of distributed risk and centralized (to a degree) information without making a value judgement as to which club is "better" for any reason.  This is the age of information and I'm sure that a periodic and reciprocal data file exchange of forum/technical strings between this club and the others would not diminish the collective or individual value of the organizations involved. Each would certainly retain their own distinct "personality" and structure but we would all end up with exponentially larger pools of data from which to draw without having to belong to more than one group. This cooperative approach to information sharing would have the side benefit of protecting each participating organization against a catastophic loss of data. Aside from making all of us more information rich, there are a lot of solid technical reasons to have site/data redundancy.



Mikey

[Mike Hughes]

I was a full member of Dorian's site first.  In fact, my car is the featured car this month on the main page.  It was on that site that I found out about this one.  I like them both and they DO have different "personalities."  That said, I see some of the same names on both sites, and sometimes some of the same discussions.  So what?  Those of us who dwell on both sites get something from each and are happy.  If there are other sites out there I would probably look at them, too, and gain something from each of them.

- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havanna Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

[n/a]

Hello Michael,
I don't participate in Gorian's site, so I cannot speak to that.  The yahoo site was nice because it allows delivery of email on a piece by piece method to Outlook Express.  This site, of which I am a paid member, requires a "log on" to read messages.

I check this site about once a week.  It is somewhat an inconvience.  But, the bottom line, IMHO, is the participants in the list.   People write to a list because of the participants and the replies they may receive.  I write to this list and respond to the yahoo list to help those who post there.  Tom Hanson reads yahoo.  Joe Alexander tends to respond to this list.  So it goes.

Best regards,
Don
Cleveland, OH

[Raymond]

Dan, You are appreciated on both sites.  Even when you are admonishing some of us not to be stupid.  I got my "rolling restoration" in April of 2003.  My internet search turned up Pagoda113 and the advice I got from you, Naj, Cees and others was invaluable.  I literally would not have a running car if it wasn't for the help there.  

You give generously of your time and you are appreciated by the people who benefit from your posts at any site.  I live in Florida but if I was anywhere near you, you would be getting all of my "don't do it yourself" business.

This site is getting better all the time.  I have noticed the posting traffic on Dorian's site has dropped precipitously.  If Dorian decides to throw in the towel, what will happen to all of the archived knowledge that you and others have contributed there already?  

Regarding your lost business, do you want to become a parts shipping house?  If so, do you have an on-line ordering system?  Would people on this site consider it too commercial if you let us know?

Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe

[rwmastel]

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

Gents, Now matter how you interpret the mission of our group as quoted above, you can apply the same kind of logic to both Dorian Garson's pagoda113.com and the old Yahoo group started by Rodd.  At the risk of stirring up trouble or asking that which has been asked before, for my own benefit and the benefit of perhaps newer members, I'd like to know why "we" (113 owners in general) have three "internet clubs" with ostensibly the same purpose.

One man's view of history:
- I couldn't find a W113 site when shopping for my car, so I helped create the Yahoo! site.
- Yahoo! site grew quickly over time to have a few hundred members, thousands of messages, and lots of pictures stored.  Yahoo's structure became limiting and the advertising became frustrating.
- Dorian started his web site.  Lots of people joined, it was a big hit and very popular.  Some people had issues over advertisments on his site once they started showing up.  Others had an issue with soliciation for funds (memberships?).  Still others were worried that a web site run by one person could go away too easily.  There was also a group who whanted to have a more "traditional" W113 club that was officially recognized by MBCCCI (Mercedes Benz Classic Car Clubs International) to gain prestige and other benefits, and therefor Dorian's web site wasn't enough.
- This group was formed.  During the formative and planning stages, it was asked in person of Dorian if he wanted to use his site, have others help moderate it, and he be part of the larger Board.  I was not involved in these conversations so I can not provide quotes, but I was told that the basic issue was that Dorian was happy running his site and was satisfied with the money coming into his pocket from advertising and donations (memberships), which covered his time managing the site and the software expenses (plus some more?).  He was willing to sell it to the new Group, but the price was not affordable.
- The Board of this Group moved forward and created this Group.  We wrote a charter to govern the operation of the Group.  We pushed hard for MBCCCI recognition (which is not a dead issue).  We hold Board Meetings on-line.  We started the web site.  We moved Yahoo posts over to our site under Technical Articles.  We published a Group magazine.  We worked hard at organizing events for the members.  Basically, it's a fully-functional, self-sustaining organization that is run by the members for the members and ensures the information is preserved indefinitely.  I hope this answers your original question.

With regards to politics or ego:
 - The Yahoo! site might never go away because it's the only W113 site (other than mbz.org) where you can completely interact with the membership via e-mail and never have to open an internet web site.  Some people prefer that and will never want to convert to a web-based discussion forum.  That's not political or ego driven, it's just a user preference that the other groups can't provide.
 - Dorian wanted to keep his web site, which is fine.  To my knowledge, we've not revisited the issue of any cooperative effort with Dorian since our Group was created, and I don't think he's approached us.  I'm not saying this would be a bad thing, but I don't think it's been brought up from either end.  Is that "ego"?  I don't know.
 - This Group has it's reasons for existance.  I don't know if it matters where the web-based information is maintained, as long as the Board has control over it.  So, I guess that might be "political"

You recently met Dorian in Seattle.  What did he have to say about this Group?  I assume it was brought up and that's what spurred this topic.

Thanks,

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Klaus]

If I remember the postings correctly, before Yahoo there was Pete Lesler's W113 group at MBCA. Then MBCA wanted to get rid of the model-based stuff and have just one forum - BIIIG mistake, and they lost all W113 owners to the sites discussed here. Now MBCA is getting back into model forums - but the W113 owners don't participate ("our" Joe Alexander is official moderator there). MBCA's new effort would have the benefit of automatically being accredited with MBCCCI, but it would be national - while this site is truly international, and that is one of the aspects I like most about this site.
I like it the way it is. As our common ancestors said, "si fractum non sit, noli id reficere" - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Klaus
1969 280 SL

[Cees Klumper]

Maybe time I put in my 2 cents - when we started working on putting this group together, I also thought it would be best if we could combine forces with Pagoda113.com and also 'merge' the Yahoo! group in there. This to avoid duplication of effort, proliferation of information etc. I visited Dorian in Seattle and we discussed it. As already explained by Rodd, we did not manage to work it out. Since then, we have gone our own ways. In all, I think it has worked out well and, as some of you will know, I contribute to Pagoda113.com from time to time as well.

Our philosophy is for the Group to provide as much to the members for as little as possible. Shortly, we will be starting work on the Ownership, Maintenance & Repairs Manual with the 25 or so volunteers who each signed up for a piece of the work. When this manual is ready, we will have accomplished one of the objectives I always thought was very important for Pagoda enthusiasts worldwide: to capture all of the collective knowledge and information that is so essential in maintaining and enjoying this little car. Until the Group was formed, this objective was very far from being assured despite the existence of the Yahoo! and the Pagoda113.com websites, for reasons already mentioned.

Anyway I am enjoying the discussion on this thread (thanks for stirring it up Michael!) and all of the comments made. I am personally convinced this Group will continue to grow and prosper, and will keep getting better and better at helping enthusiasts "making the most out of owning their Pagoda" for decades to come ...

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[hauser]

I thought I would revive this post since I am completely perplexed how the other group is still hanging on by a thread.  One of the latest posts was revived from another dating back to 2002.  How can anyone contribute to a site that is positively stagnant.  The one and only reason I check in is to use its eBay link just to save a little time so I can check what's selling on eBay.  I had hoped that by now we would only have one group and a large one that could get the recognition that we deserve from the good folks in Germany.  Perhaps it's just a matter of time until there's only one.  Until then those that do use the other site could save themselves some time and check here first and find the answers they seek.

I apologize if my post is inappropriate but I feel a dying horse should be put out of its misery.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[Peter van Es]

Hauser,

it's called natural selection. People gravitate to the place with the most activity and content. However, it's the decision of pagoda113.com to decide to continue or to stop. Their members, and the founder, are very welcome here.

In fact, we've had a link to them on our front page for the last 2 years, hoping that Dorian would reciprocate.

The Yahoo board is mostly dead, and all the knowledge of the old Yahoo forums is already incorporated in the technical manual.

Peter

(ps: the Pagoda link to eBay is very easy to replicate here on this site... in fact, I've just added it to our front page menu)

1970 280SL. Also known as 'admin@sl113.org' and organiser of the Technical Manual.

[hauser]

Danke!  For the eBay link Peter.  This makes it even easier.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[glennard]

Another PPP- Preserve Pagoda Persiflage.   The banter is half the fun.  As for redundancy- usually do the job at least three times-----before getting it write-ops wright-ops right.  But, a BIG thanx to you guys that keep this going.  web master, etc. whoever you are.

[seattle_Jerry]

I've noticed a lot of Pagoda owners don't actually drive their cars. They should sell them to guys like me that would use them regularly

Yeah Dorian's site is weak in the postings, but at least he is Washington based. Blacklick is a long way from here.

So everyone should just split up in an orderly fashion: Europe, East and West of the Rockies, everywhere else

1967 230SL Havana Brown Auto with A/C

[J. Huber]

Well, I still check in on P113 fairly regularly. It is true that the volume there has dropped considerably. It was not always that way as many of us know. In its day, it was a very enjoyable active site that showed us how powerful a web-based Pagoda site could be. (And, I met some downright nice friends because of it.) This site has taken the Online Pagoda experience to a higher and more productive level -- partly because it is international, partly because it is more team-oriented, and partly because some of the veterans of the older sites have made the move over along with their passion for Pagodas.

And to be honest, I still check my Yahoo account as well! Not much activity there but a little.

James
63 230SL

[Chad]

I like the technical howto type of section of that site. A search over there is a useful thing to do often times. The low volume of the posts however has kept me from even registering, let alone formally joining.  Also seem to be more off/topic or posts related to modifying the cars, which turns me off. The low volume makes the site unappealing to involve membership at the next level.  This site here and the german site really seem to support the bulk of the community.  

This is just an opinion.

1967 230SL

[hauser]

I guess whatever floats your boat.  I too was a member there but before things dried up I did not renew my membership. To be a member on the other site you have to pay an annual fee.  Here you don't.  With the annual membership what does your money do for you other than allow you to make posts.  Here you get issues of Pagoda world and periodic news letters.  Members can shop at the online store and receive discounts.  I don't remember them ever hosting a tech event similar to Blacklick.  So what I am trying to basically say is if yo're going to spend the money do it here.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[john.mancini]

You are absolutely correct. I have "evolved" from collecting, restoring and judging Corvettes, Mustangs, Shelbys to now focusing on our beloved 113's. One, unified internet W113 group would be a big plus. Less duplication of info and ideas. How about the creation of a comprehensive restoration manual for our cars? Other clubs are far ahead with much better organization and information. Has anyone out there ever been a member of the National Corvette Restorers Society (NCRS) or the Shelby American Automotive Club (SAAC). These are very impressive groups that will guide you through the most accurate nut and bolt restoration imaginable. I'd love to see that here because there are so many knowlegdable 113 people in this group.
Pagoda69