123Ignition Settings Question

[Pawel66]

Hello!

I am about to try to put in the 123 in my car, to replace the 009. I was wondering about the settings. As per the Technical Manual and your kind advise, I would be using 051 settings for 009, which are 4 ATDC at idle and 30BTDC at 3000rpm. But as per advise from Forum and messages, it is recommended to use, actually, 8BTDC (with vacuum) at idle and 38 at 3000rpm. This is how I have the 009 set now and it works great.

As in 123 (bluetooth) you can play with the curves - shall I stay with the table (4 and 30) or program 8 and 38? Or put in what is in the table, then play with it and see how it goes with the other settings?

What I saw on the forum was set curve 8 or E for car with emission control, but the bluetooth is a different animal here - I have not spotted any advise on this one.

Pawel 

[Flyair]

Pawel,
I suggest that in addition to any wise words from other members you send your question to the reseller. He should know quite well what are the best settings

[Benz Dr.]

8 degrees at idle and 38 degrees full advance with everything hooked up ready to go. This will give you optimum performance without worrying about pinging on almost any 051 distributor set up. Other distributors used may work differently and have different advance curves but 38 degrees full advance is what you really want to aim for. A lot of people see 30 degrees at 3,000 RPM and think that's the setting you want but that's only for distributor advance. You also need to add the setting at idle ( 8 degrees ) to come up with the full 38 degrees.

[Pawel66]

Thank you Dan, that is what I thought.

Flyair - I know what the manufacturer wants, sample for 051 is in the installation manual as example. But the manufacturer will state what was in MB specs, while people who are practicing and deal with our cars every day, including Michal, by the way, recommend a bit different setting. I tried this setting on 009 and the engine works much better.

I have not yet studied the leaflet that comes with distributor. But from manual I know two curves are set up there: shaft advance and vacuum advance. You program them separately in thie tune+ bluetooth thing. So if Dan says the sum is 8 and 38 - I know what to set.

Maybe I will attach the manual - 051 is there as an example. Maybe this will add value to the Forum for others.

[Tyler S]

I have been messing around with the curves on the 123 and this is the best setup I have come across. This may vary slightly from car to car. This would be for replacing a 051 or 009. The key to remember is this is for Manifold Vacuum on the throttle body. This is with a static mechanical timing set to ~5 to 8 deg BTDC at idle. Be sure you have vacuum at idle from the throttle body vacuum line.

Pawel, Do be sure you have the correct throttle body for this setup. You should be getting vacuum at idle. The vacuum disappears as you rev up the engine. Use the set points as a baseline and adjust the advance high points 3 and 4 as your engine allows. Keep in mind 4 always has to be greater than 3 or the software won't let you make changes. You may be able to add a few more degrees if your engine doesn't ping.

[rgafitanu@gmail.com]

To clarify, the real advance value is around 28 degrees BTDC? You add the 5-8 mechanical timing at idle?

[Benz Dr.]

Your distributor is supposed to move 30 degrees, and then with 8 degrees at idle added, you should have 38 degrees of total advance.

[Tyler S]

Just to keep it simple. Remove any advance from the distributer curve and map curve on the 123 app. Save your changes.
Using a timing light set the distributer to 5-8 deg BTDC at idle.
Then go back and add your curves.
5-8 btdc + 30 degrees (dist and map advance) = 35-38 degrees total advance.

I have found that starting out with the distributer mechanically set (clocking) with advance already in it allows for better starting.
For some reason the 500 rmp starting point in the software is barely met by the cranking speed and in effect you get no advance.
When thinking about the 123, throw the whole idea about the 051 and "retard" out the window. It will just confuse you

[Pawel66]

Tyler, Dan, thank you for your patience!

Feels like at school - do not think, just do it 

Wrapping up:
1. I set the engine at "0" as per 123 instruction.
2. I do the green light exercise as per 123 instruction.
3. I bring the curves to zero on the device and save.
4. I set the the distributor (turning the distribuor) with vacuum to 5-8 BTDC.
5. I put in the curves you sent and save.

Then the next step, I hope, is: enjoy your engine running smooth like a silk.

Rather than go back to computer, to Forum and type: "Tyler, I did it and it does not work! Help!"

Many thanks again!
Pawel

[Tyler S]

Yes set the engine to "0" degrees. Make sure you are on TDC compression stroke of cylinder 1. Verify by looking down the oil fill at cyl #1 cam lobes. They should be pointing straight up. Or, if you havent already removed it, you can look at the distributer rotor and make sure its pointing at cyl# 1 wire on the dist cap.
Remove the old distributer and follow instructions for 123 install. You may need to remove the distributer drive gear from the engine and rotate it a few teeth so that the rotor on the 123 distributer again lines up to cyl # 1 on the cap.

[Pawel66]

Ok, thanks!

[rgafitanu@gmail.com]

Tyler, my confusion comes from your post #4 picture that shows the red line for advance being almost constant at 20 degrees advance. It has been mentioned many times that the advance should be 38 at 3000 rpm so why am I seeing 2000 on the graph? The reason I am asking is because the 123 appears to be a cool improvement that I would do.

[Pawel66]

Ok, I did as described above. Set 8 BTDC at idle. With the curves from Tyler input into grid I get 38 BTDC at 3k rpm. It all worked ok, some hick ups, but sorted. I had no chance to drive the car with the settings Tyler provided, but the whole set up holds.

Distributire very sensitive when you mechanically set it - very small movement produces visible timing change. Very stable timing seen with the lamp as revs go up and down - quite impressive...

Radu, I guess you get some advance from idle adjustment, some form shaft advance and some from MAP.

I will keep you posted after driving a bit.

Pawel

[Flyair]

I was there as a witness of the entire installation procedure and could see Pawel's smile when at the end it all worked fine.

BTW, Pawel's Pagoda is a top condition car very pleasurable to watch. He (and his mechanics) did a great job in bringing it to the current condition.

The season will be hot!

[Tyler S]

Pawel, glad it worked out. Remember the beauty of this is you can make changes. Play around with the advance settings and map curve untill you are satasfied. No 2 engines will be identical. My graphs are merely what works best for me but its a great starting point for everyone else. As I stated above, you can set your mechanical base timing from 5-8. If it idles better at 5 or below then so be it. Just subtract the difference into your distibuter advance curve so you still have 38 degrees total advance (or around that number, you may be able to get away with more or less.) just make sure it doesnt ping.

Radu, that is just the advance for RPM. Add in base timing of 8 and the advance created by the MAP curve and you get to 38 total advance. If you put a timing light on it at 3000rpm, thats what you would see

[Pawel66]

Tyler, thank you. I think I understand the idea. My long term issue was rough idle and shaking ar body on idle. I thought I heard engine work uneven. Today, although I did not have much time to really get in to it after installing the 123 and replacing fuel gauge, but it seems the work of engine was better. So I need to still tune it and keep at least one parameter constant at idle.

I am not sure (that's my English) what is it when engine "pings". It clanks? So far there was no noise, but I was just revving it up to 3k rpm to look at ignition timing...

[Benz Dr.]

Imagine a squirrel running across the roof of your metal shed - now imagine that sound coming from inside your engine!???

                    Not quite that sound but kinda similar.  That's what pinking sounds like and it's actually the sound of your connecting rods vibrating when ignition happens too early.

[Pawel66]

Got you! I had a weasel living somewhere in/near (?) my house, running on the tin roof at night - I know what you mean! 

Thanks!