Author Topic: Oil Filter Washers and Seals (Read 37373 times)

bpossel · « **on:** December 02, 2004, 05:02:11 »

There have been many posts on oil changes and washers needed for the filter canister, but I still have a couple of questions.... I want to do this right!

1. What is the larger copper washer (see attached picture supplied from an earlier post) used for? Also, there is no mention of its purpose (that I can find).
2. In one of the posts, there is mention of a washer that looks like a small piece of garden hose. Is this needed? Where does it sit in the filter? If needed, anyone know why the filter doesnt come with this???

Thanks!
Bob

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bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

Naj ✝︎ · « **Reply #1 on:** December 02, 2004, 05:19:46 »

Bob,
The large copper washer is for the oil pan drain plug.
The smaller copper washer is for the heat exchanger (oil cooler) on the 250sl and 230sl if fitted. The steel washer is for the bolt of the filter cannister.

There are three other seals that do not need changing every filter change but do deteriorate with time and need to be changed. The garden hose type seal (item 2 in picture - unfortunately the other two seals not on picture) fits on the filter head and seals the top of the oil filter element to the head (If its not there, you may not be getting 100% filteration). The donut looking seal fits at the bottom of the filter cannister. On inspection, this one feels very hard and may have a 'fried' look. The last one is in the bolt hole of the cannister. If nothing else, it holds the bolt in the bowl when you undo it and keeps the hot oil from burning up your hands.

http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/cees%20klumper/200465163216_DSC01131.JPG

Hope this helps
naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

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filter_washers.jpg
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bpossel · « **Reply #2 on:** December 02, 2004, 05:33:51 »

Hello Naj,

Thanks for your reply!
My current setup doesnt have the "hose type" washer. I will try to locate this today...

I still have a question on the larger copper washer. My filter kit came with 2 small copper washers, 1 large copper washer (this is the one I am questioning), 1 steel type washer and the rubber washer for the filter canister. The 2 smaller copper washers fit perfectly for the oil cooler and engine drain plug.

What is the larger washer for? It is a "ring, or round type", not a flat washer like the other 2 copper washers.

Comments? My car is a '71 280sl.

Thanks!
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

Naj ✝︎ · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2004, 05:48:47 »

Hi, Bob,
Seems to me like the later 280s (70/71) may have a small drain plug.
Earlier cars have a big drain plug (maybe 24mm dia.) which is undone either with a 17mm spanner or 14mm allen hex, and they use the big round profile copper sealing washer.
naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

hands_aus · « **Reply #4 on:** December 02, 2004, 05:59:44 »

Part number for

top sealing ring, A000 184 33 80, not expensive but essential to your cars oil filtering.

bolt seal A000 184 32 80

donut type seal A000 184 17 80

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

rwmastel · « **Reply #5 on:** December 02, 2004, 14:32:53 »

Bob,

In your picture:

- The large rubber gasket goes in the top of the filter canister (make sure the old one is removed as using two can crack the canister).

- The small steel looking one on the upper left goes with the long bolt that holds the filter canister on.

- The small copper looking one in the upper middle is probably for the oil cooler drain (if engine is so equipped).

- The larger copper looking one on the upper right is for the main oil pan drain plug. This should have a round cross-section as it is a "crush washer". These are not reuseable, so always use a fresh one.

The "garden hose" style gasket (not washer) is made of rubber and is essential to oil filtering. It should be replaced when hardened by age. The gaskets in the bottom of the filter canister are rubber as well and should be replaced when hardened by age.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420

bpossel · « **Reply #6 on:** December 02, 2004, 17:07:53 »

UPDATE: I checked for this gasket again (using more light...), I found it. So my car did still have it! I pulled it off and compared it to the new one that I purchased. The old one was indeed hard and approx. 30% smaller. Glad I still had mine in place, but it was definitely in need of replacement!
Bob

It appears that my car has not had the "garden style" gasket for as long as I have owned it. I wonder how long its been missing??? Anyway, ordered this small gasket today and will install and replace oil asap. I wonder how much damage, if any, this caused?
Thanks all!
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

Cees Klumper · « **Reply #7 on:** December 03, 2004, 00:25:05 »

Bob - as indicated, the common opinion seems to be that the garden-hose style seal is required to ensure that the oil is indeed properly filtered. Nevertheless, there have been many reports of owners like you, discovering that the seal was missing for longer periods of time. This may have been caused by the old one falling off (although they are usually on pretty tight) when changing the oil and filter, without the mechanic noticing this. The fact that filter kits usually don't come with this seal doesn't help.
Now for the question of exactly what influence this seal does or doesn't have, I would like to hear some arguments. Does anyone know whether the oil comes into the filter from the outside or the inside, and whether it comes in from the top or from the bottom? Is there so much pressure inside the canister that, if the seal is missing, (a lot of) the oil is likely to pass around the filter, directly through the space between the top of the filter and the bottom of the canister holder (the space that the seal fills)?

If the usual engine diagnostics (compression, leakdown, oil pressure) don't reveal any real problems, I would not wrory about it. Just fit the seal (I buy 5 at a time and replace them maybe every 4 oil changes) and note whether there seems to be an influence on the oil pressure.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

Klaus · « **Reply #8 on:** December 09, 2004, 11:02:42 »

<Now for the question of exactly what influence this seal does or doesn't have, I would like to hear some arguments. Does anyone know whether the oil comes into the filter from the outside or the inside, and whether it comes in from the top or from the bottom? Is there so much pressure inside the canister that, if the seal is missing, (a lot of) the oil is likely to pass around the filter, directly through the space between the top of the filter and the bottom of the canister holder (the space that the seal fills)?>

Cees, for a cross-sectional drawing of the oil filter with oil flow description (outside to inside, radially) see BBB Starting 1968 page 18-3/1. Yes, if the sealing ring (part 6 in the drawing) is missing, the filter element is loose and oil can bypass it.

Klaus
1969 280 SL

ja17 · « **Reply #9 on:** December 11, 2004, 00:59:27 »

Hello Bob,
Naj is correct here at some point the later six cylinder Mercedes engines (after W113) had an oil pan with a small drain plug which used the small copper seal. The bolt heads are 13mm on this latest version as opposed to the 17mm head and the 14mm allen socket used on the earlier oil drain plugs.
Another interesting note is that the later version oil pans had a 1/2 liter higher oil capacity. The oil pump had a rubber sleeve attached to its pickup to accomodate the deeper pan. These higher capacity pans are easily recognized by there ribbed bottoms.
Page 18-6/1 of the BBB has a nice description with part numbers.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

bpossel · « **Reply #10 on:** December 11, 2004, 06:00:57 »

Looks like the oil flow is from the outside of the filter, to inside of filter, then back to engine.

See attached pic.

Bob

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oil-flow-1.jpg
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bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

bpossel · « **Reply #11 on:** December 11, 2004, 06:27:08 »

Hi Joe,

Since the later style injection pumps were fed oil automatically by the engine oil, is it then possible that the add'l 1/2 liter of oil was to accomodate for the injection pump? It seems to me that some amount of oil actually resides in the lower portion of the pump at all times. Obviously, this is being refreshed with new oil as the engine is running... Is this correct?
Bob

quote:
Originally posted by ja17

Hello Bob,
Naj is correct here at some point the later six cylinder Mercedes engines (after W113) had an oil pan with a small drain plug which used the small copper seal. The bolt heads are 13mm on this latest version as opposed to the 17mm head and the 14mm allen socket used on the earlier oil drain plugs.
Another interesting note is that the later version oil pans had a 1/2 liter higher oil capacity. The oil pump had a rubber sleeve attached to its pickup to accomodate the deeper pan. These higher capacity pans are easily recognized by there ribbed bottoms.
Page 18-6/1 of the BBB has a nice description with part numbers.

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

n/a · « **Reply #12 on:** December 11, 2004, 20:54:19 »

I've had this same frustration with the various seals used on the oil filter...the donut one I bought from the dealer won't stay in place on the bottom of the filter shell, and I believe it shifted the last time I changed my oil. I never had the "garden hose" style ring at the top.
Question: Would you guys consider it a bad thing if an adaptor were made to allow use of a conventional screw-on filter, preferably at an angle more vertical to ease replacement? I'm still compiling a list of products to make for the SLs, and when I saw this post I was reminded of how much I hate changing filters on these cars....

glennard · « **Reply #13 on:** December 11, 2004, 21:58:23 »

quote:
Originally posted by Joe Bango

I've had this same frustration with the various seals used on the oil filter...the donut one I bought from the dealer won't stay in place on the bottom of the filter shell, and I believe it shifted the last time I changed my oil. I never had the "garden hose" style ring at the top.
Question: Would you guys consider it a bad thing if an adaptor were made to allow use of a conventional screw-on filter, preferably at an angle more vertical to ease replacement? I'm still compiling a list of products to make for the SLs, and when I saw this post I was reminded of how much I hate changing filters on these cars....

About half of the old MBs I've had did not have the upper rubber seal(about 1/2" high). -i.e. limited filtration!

hands_aus · « **Reply #14 on:** December 12, 2004, 04:38:48 »

Hey Joe Bango,

The earlier Pagodas (230's and 250's) had vertically mounted oil filter housings.
They are probably the same unit with a different engine connection/ mount plate.

Maybe you could adapt an older style Genuine MB oil filter housing on your car?

The donut washer actually fits under a recess in the cover. It does not just sit there.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

ja17 · « **Reply #15 on:** December 12, 2004, 08:34:02 »

Hello Bob,
Yes the later injection pumps are fed oil from the engine. Very little oil remains in the injection pump after the engine is switched off since it drains into the engine oil pan. Only the later replacement high capacity lower oil pan (introduced after the W113 cars but can be retrofit) will increase the oil capacity of the engine (these pans are ribbed
on the bottom). The 230-SL and 250-SL engines had smaller lower oil pans than the 280-SL so they did hold a little less oil. If the car was equiped with an oil cooler (standard on the 250 and 280 but optional on the 230-SL) this would increase the capacity a little on the 230-SL.
NAJ, yes a later oil pan did have a 13mm drain plug and used the small solid copper seal. These pans may have came out after W113 production and may be standard replacement parts for the 280-SL's, explaining the confusion.

Also Bob, yes the oil does flow from the ouside into the filter.I Ocassionally check the folds of the filter paper to see what it is catching. The filter unit shown in your post is actually a later configuration (after the W113 engines). Mercedes must have realized the problems with the separate seals in the earlier units. The new design pictured in the post has new filter seals built in every new filter so they are automatically replaced at every filter change! this filter assembly design was used in the V-8 engines and the M110 twincam engines which followed the M130 (W113) engines. Notice the spring at the bottom of the canister to hold the filter tight on this version.

Joe Bango,
It sounds like you may be missing the stamped sheet metal retainer which holds your lower rubber seal in place in the filter bottom!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

Naj ✝︎ · « **Reply #16 on:** December 15, 2004, 13:18:03 »

Reading Joe Alexander's comment, I got tempted to cut open an oil filter element to see what was in the folds.
This one is a fine mesh 'running in' filter element I used after head gasket change.
Quite a lot of sediment collected

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Fltr05.JPG
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naj

65 230SL
68 280SL

66andBlue · « **Reply #17 on:** December 30, 2006, 21:43:40 »

Quote

Originally posted by hands_aus

Part number for ... bolt seal A000 184 32 80

Had a difficult time locating this seal ring in the 230SL oil filter housing but with the help of Joe Alexander, who told me:
The small seal in question #40 is difficult to locate. It is not a critical seal but you may want to change it from time to time. In the bottom of the filter canister a "hat shaped" sheet metal plate holds seal (#39) in place and it also has the little (#40) seal nested inside of the "hat". The bolt runs through the plate and seals., I finally got it.
I combined all the information from the different posts in this picture and added some part numbers, perhaps it is helpful for others with similar "vision" problems.

Alfred
1966 blue 230SL automatic

J. Huber · « **Reply #18 on:** December 30, 2006, 22:00:47 »

Very Nice Al! And timely too -- I just changed my oil and filter this afternoon! All seals healthy and accounted for.

James
63 230SL

glennard · « **Reply #19 on:** December 31, 2006, 07:52:23 »

Number 6 on the assembly drawing is the 1/2" high-about 3/4" dia. rubber seal that fits over the stub out of the block that is usually missing on penultimate MBs-no? When the filter bolt is loosened and the filter holding can is dropped down, this seal falls into the oil collector unseen by the oil changer. Voila, no filtration on assembly and running.

rwmastel · « **Reply #20 on:** December 31, 2006, 10:48:44 »

Yes, #6 in the cut-away drawing is #37 in the exploded view drawing and is often missing.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420

jameshoward · « **Reply #21 on:** December 31, 2006, 18:41:28 »

Happy New Year (in Germany anyway - North America still having it all to look forward to)

At the risk of appearing to be someone who clearly lacks a parts list for this car, would it be possible for a generous sole to post the complete set of part numbers required to allow beginers like me to purchase the correct seals, gaskets and parts for a full oil filter change? This could then be posted directly into the tech site.

From Bob Smith's post (for which I am very grateful - thank you) we already have the following:

top sealing ring, A000 184 33 80, not expensive but essential to your cars oil filtering.

bolt seal A000 184 32 80

donut type seal A000 184 17 80

Can someone add to this to make the package complete thus allowing newbies to go direct to their local MB dealer and pass over a list of parts to order?

Thanks,

JH

glennard · « **Reply #22 on:** December 31, 2006, 18:55:03 »

Rodd, I think 37 and 6 are two very different seals. The oil filter total system for various MB was different. If the 1/2" high seal(no. 6) is missing on those requiring it, there is limited filtration. Happy New Year.

ja17 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 31, 2006, 20:11:45 »

Hello,

Actually #37 and #6 are the same seal. The drawing of #37 is not to scale so it does not look like the actual part. All the W113 engines used the same oil filter and seals. The 280SLs oil filter canister was mounted at an angle but all the internals were the same. An additional solid copper o ring seal is in the filter kit for the oil cooler drain on the 280SL.

Part #37, #39, and #40 would have to be ordered separately since they are not included in the oil filter kit. These seals do not have to be changed at every oil change however often times they are missing, especially the top seal. If they are hard or cracked they should be changed.
See Alfred's diagram (red part numbers).

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio

J. Huber · « **Reply #24 on:** December 31, 2006, 21:09:01 »

James, I think everything you would need are right in Alfred's post.

And as an aside -- when I first checked to see if my number 6 (37) was in place several years back, I found it was. I decided to replace it -- the old one was very firmly in place and the new one went on rather snug. I only mention this to say that, in my case, its not like the thing would easily fall out. I suppose over time it could deteriorate though and others may be different.

James
63 230SL

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Author Topic: Oil Filter Washers and Seals (Read 37373 times)

bpossel

bpossel

bpossel

Klaus

bpossel

bpossel

n/a

glennard

glennard

glennard