Author Topic: Putting a M113 into a W113  (Read 6130 times)

Justin B

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Putting a M113 into a W113
« on: August 20, 2017, 04:10:56 »
I recently inherited a SL230.  The body is in restore-able shape but the car has been sitting for over 30 years and getting the engine running,well that's another story. I have, sitting in my driveway, a 2001 S430 that doesn't look too good but runs and drives great. I've been working on Mercedes-Benz vehicles for over 45 years and am going to put the S Class engine into the SL. I was wondering if anyone here has done or knows of anyone that has done this. Any and all help would be appreciated.

cfm65@me.com

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2017, 05:19:07 »
Hi Justin,
I think your biggest challenge would be the electronics and engine management. However it has been done.
I suggest you goto 'Research and Development' (just one heading below) where you will find answers to your question.
Regards
Chris
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Justin B

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2017, 11:14:00 »
Thank you Chris, for the advice

stickandrudderman

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2017, 11:14:55 »
The problem with that idea is the whole palava with getting replacement keys.
If you want to use the original electronic management from the 210 you will be stuck with the original immobiliser/key combination. If, some time in the future, you lose the keys or they stop working, how are you going to get around that problem without the 210 to show the dealer?
personally I would fit a bespoke ignition system that circumnavigates this issue.
I have no idea how Mechatronix get around it but I see from pictures that they use electronic keys.

Cees Klumper

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2017, 04:48:29 »
Let me recommend you have another look at the original engine, or find a correct replacement one. Car will be worth a lot more with original mechanicals and will probably drive better also.
Cees Klumper
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mdsalemi

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2017, 21:40:06 »
I'll agree with the general consensus that this is a far more difficult project than one might imagine, electronics are a huge issue.
You will indeed turn your car into a Frankenstein with little market value when complete; in the world of MB cars this isn't something that most people respect. If you don't care about that, best to turn to some experts.

That being said, there's an independent facility in Commerce Township Michigan called Motorwerks. The owner, Satish Tumalla has done a number of engine conversions including putting a V12 ex SL600 into his W126; https://youtu.be/QpytnbbMfyw a similar conversion into an early generation SLK, and an BMW M5 motor into a 3.0CSi. It's very time consuming and quite costly--but look him up and have a chat if so interested. He's just come off a couple of Pagoda restorations and his advice would be sanguine.
Michael Salemi
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Justin B

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2017, 14:11:37 »
Cees,
While I value your opinion, I'm not worried about the resale value of the car. I am building the car for my own pleasure and not to sell. I've always loved the W113 body style but I've always felt they were way under powered. Since I'm one of those guys that just can't seem to leave well enough alone, and I already have most all the components I'll need for the conversion, It seems like the logical thing to do. I agree that the engine electronics will be a challenge but I think I have a way around all that with a company named Mega Squirt. They build custom engine management control units, I have an email into them and am awaiting an answer. Hopefully this will be a car that I will enjoy for many years to come. What I AM looking for is someone that has done this type of conversion before so I can learn from their experiences.
Thank you for your input,
Regards,
Justin.

mclewis

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2017, 14:21:14 »
Marc Lewis
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Justin B

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2017, 15:15:33 »
Thank you for the link, it will be hepful.

Raymond

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2017, 21:45:20 »
I have to take exception to the notion that a well-executed resto-mod is not respected.  That is a matter of opinion.  For instance, you have to respect the job that Mechatronix did with their autobahn burner.  There are thousands of examples of Pagodas out there whose owners want them to be as perfectly standard as the factory intended.  I respect those who are so meticulous and knowledgeable that they can make their Pagodas into Concours level show cars.  I also respect anyone with imagination who gets grease under their fingernails building their own vision.  Value is not always monetary.  I hope you create a unique, beautiful, and fun new cousin for the Pagoda family.   8)
Ray
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Justin B

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2017, 23:26:34 »
Raymond, thank you for understanding my desire to make my car a little different / better than it was 50 odd years ago. I was originally going to design and build a full frame with all Corvette components and, by cutting the floor boards out, set the body onto it. Since I already have the 220 car with a great engine and transmission wasting away in my driveway I decided to take another route. I think keeping it all Mercedes is not exactly turning it into the Frankenstein Monster as some have implied, maybe more like the Incredible Hulk.

Shvegel

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2017, 07:44:26 »
The key issue isn't really a problem. You leave the original ring antenna intact and fasten the S class key to it install it under the dash. Then you wire the W113 ignition switch to do the electrical function.  Basically you are tricking the theft prevention system.  That way you can leave the original steering column alone.

That being said GGR has swapped an early non-electronic M117 CIS 5.6 liter into his W113.  That might be a more friendy swap. Just getting a speedometer working where the S class has no mechanical drive could be a pain let alone faking all the sensors the stay with the car.  Hatch and Sons did a couple of iron V-8's using all factory parts except the motor mount arms.
http://www.hatchandsons.com/pages/280sl/
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 08:01:14 by Shvegel »

mdsalemi

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2017, 14:57:54 »
...take exception...a well-executed resto-mod is not respected...

Since you cannot consider us here at the forum the same as an audience at an auction, most of the resto-mods (if that's the proper word for it) commented on here are, frankly picked apart like vultures do carrion, and laughed at vociferously. That's the no respect part, the Pagoda resto-mods like Rodney Dangerfield. It's not "us" per se, but what the collective Mercedes-Benz community believes. Since we're not bidding to buy, this transcends the value option.

Go to any kind of "car show" where American Iron is the standard, and you'll see that except for some rare cars (Some early Shelby Mustang Cobras, Plymouth Superbird, or other certain rare muscle cars) modification is celebrated and valued. It just isn't in general for Mercedes-Benz--and that's not "my opinion" but merely observation of fact.

I pointed to Motorwerks, a local shop, and the engine transplants done by the owner. In the W126 group, these kinds of modifications are celebrated--but that's a small group. The respect for mods is considerably less so on Gull Wings, 190SL and Pagoda. Yes, there are those such as Mechatronix, Hatch & Sons, etc. that have done some very well executed engine transplant mods, but they are done generally by demand of a specific owner--not because the market is calling for it or it increases the value of the car.

I mentioned the V12 placed into the late model SLK. There are nearly 40 various ECU's on the running gear of the donor SL600 or recipient SLK. Many of these are keyed to work together, and some are also keyed to the VIN...start separating this "system" and now you can see the issue as you start to cobble these things together. Satish gave a presentation on this conversion a couple of years ago, and it was described as something akin to the old game of "Whack a Mole". An example: you put things together, and the car won't start. So, you modify some things, and the car starts. YAY, but it won't get above idle. So, you modify more, and now you get it to run well, but the directionals don't work, and the radio is only on FM. So you fix those, and now the transmission won't shift...these are the kinds of issues that electronics present themselves with. Some of the solutions employed on that mod included having to replace certain ECU's and have them keyed by MB to the new VIN. Others could be re-programmed with the right tools. This is the kind of challenge that some relish, and if you have the patience and time for it, and the end result will be what you want, there's no reason not to do it.

My overriding advice is to speak with others who have done it so you at least go into it knowing what some of the challenges are and where they might present themselves.
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
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Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

Justin B

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2017, 22:30:18 »
Raymond, I'm glad to see someone out there with a sense of my vision. I have never been one to leave things alone. These cars were fantastic 50 years ago but times have changed and so has technology. Personally I think it foolish to spend the time and money it will take to bring this car back to nothing more than what it was 50 years ago. I have the time, money and knowledge to make it better than it ever was. I'm not looking to relive my past, what I'm looking for is a car that is exciting to drive, that is personalized to my tastes and still has the looks and charm of days gone by. I have no intentions of selling this car.

Justin B

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Re: Putting a M113 into a W113
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2017, 22:42:24 »
Shvegel,
Thank you for the tip on the ignition key, it may come in handy. Also thank you for the link, it is very inspirational.
Best regards,
Justin.