Author Topic: How about supercharging a 280SL?  (Read 28357 times)

TR

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How about supercharging a 280SL?
« on: January 02, 2005, 00:13:48 »
Hi folks.  I'm new to the Pagoda SL Group and this is my first posting.  I have what most of you might consider an odd, perhaps even a silly, question.  And that question is have any of you ever tried, or even heard of, supercharging a 280SL?

I've owned my "baby", a red 71' 280SL 4-spd, for 20 years and intend to keep it forever.  I have "invested" nearly $100K into it so far...a silly amount I know, however, I'm sure many of you can relate to my passion for the car.

Now I hope this thought doesn't strike everyone as heresy, but I've been toying with the idea of adding a supercharger to the car.  The engine and drive train (along with practically everything else) are new and my mechanics seem to think the car can handle a supercharger and that the power and resulting performance increase would be substantial.

Comments anyone?  And please accept my apology in advance if this question comes across as a sacrilege.

Thanks.

Tom in Boise


n/a

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2005, 07:09:48 »
At least it would be more in keeping with the era than turbocharging! Interesting concept, especially regarding calibration of the fuel injection.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2005, 09:03:52 by n/a »

mdsalemi

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2005, 08:52:34 »
Hello Tom in Boise,

With the 20+ years of experience you have with this car I'm surprised you didn't answer your own question.  Or, perhaps you did and were looking for some validation?

Over the years all kinds of aftermarket kits to do all kinds of "performance" enhancing have been available for all kinds of cars.  "Performance" of course can mean increased speed, better handling, etc.  You should take note, however, that there was a dearth of such contrivances for the 113.  Why is this?  I have my own ideas...

1)  It isn't a sports car.  Yes it is a two seater, and yes it held some appeal to those who purchased sports cars, but look at what it came with: bus-sized steering wheel, recirculating ball steering, swing axle, etc. and thus it could never compete well with sports cars such as the long gone British marques, or Porsche.  SL=Super Light.  It wasn't super and certainly wasn't light.  It is a stunning work of mechanical automotive art; it is beautiful in its factory configurations.

2)  It was appropriately configured.  You generally see brake enhancements when the braking leaves something to be desired. All the early test reports comment on how good the brakes are.  You see horsepower enhancements (such as the Judson Supercharger for the 190SL) when the car was configured in an underpowered fashion.  You see handling enhancements when the handling leaves something to be desired.  For all its faults and foibles, the 113 was a great package and the "aftermarket" didn't see fit to make too many offerings.  If they did and I don't know about them, the owners at the time certainly didn't see the need for them.  It would be curious to go back and see a JC Whitney catalog from 1967-1968 and see what they had for it!  It is arguably fast enough for the intended use; it handles well, and brakes well, too when everything is working as it should.

3)  It was rarely raced. Racing generally brings out the performance enhancements of all kinds.  This is a "grand touring" car, a "boulevardier" to get you and your trophy wife or husband to and from "the club"--not around the track in a hurry.  Oh sure, some were raced, but not like Porsches, Jaguars, Triumphs and even humble MG's.  I'd be curioius to see what the annals of the SCCA would yield for 1968.  Oh yes, there was that notable win in the '60's, and many of us have seen Pete Lesler's "race prepared" 250SL, but these are the exception.

While I wouldn't call it heresy--you should do what you want to your own car--but would you be creating something the car isn't and wasn't intended to be?  How much extra horsepower would make you happy? Would you be creating stresses and forces that would shorten your engine life, or the life of other components?  Criminy, a good number of 113 owners have trouble (read all the posts!) getting a standard ignition system to work! For all the cost and trouble in trying to shoehorn a supercharger into this car--and making it work--you could buy a factory tricked out Mazdaspeed Miata (or something similar...), have that kind of fun, and when your done at the end of the day, hop into your beautiful 280SL, take your lovely wife out to dinner and utter those oft repeated words to the valet that I do when I take the car and wife to a fancy restaurant:

"4 position is DRIVE and it doesn't go far--OK?"

(NB it usually stays right in front next to the Ferrari's  :D )

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
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Restored
Michael Salemi
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TR

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2005, 15:45:01 »
Michael and Aussie -- Thank you both for your kind replies.

Michael, you are correct that I am looking for validation on the idea of supercharging the 280SL.  And as Aussie points out it would seem a better thing to do than attempting to turbocharge the car.

I also have a 2004 CLK500 cabriolet, which is a terrific machine.  I guess I just enjoy the feel of stepping on the accelerator of the CLK500; otherwise I enjoy driving the 280SL as much, or more than that rather speedy and well-handling CLK500.

My mechanics have recently made a number of modifications in order to get the 71 280SL, with Fridiking air conditioning, to hold temperature while idling for a long period of time (half hour) on a very hot day (100+ degrees F) while the A/C continually blows ice cubes.  As you probably know, this is no small accomplishment; and during the process a little bit of extra space has been opened up under the hood.  The mechanics now seem to believe they can fit a supercharger in, that the engine and drive train could handle the extra power & stress, and that we would gain oddles of horsepower and torque, and therefore acceleration.  I've not checked on this, but an additional 60 HP was mentioned as a result of adding a supercharger.  I'm not sure if this is a realistic estimate, and would appreciate any comments.

I'm not overly concerned about keeping her fully original.  And I don't intend to race or drive particuarly hard ... But it would be lovely to feel some real acceleration when I stick my foot into it.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts / comments / observations.

Tom in Boise

P.S.  My wife and I plan to begin taking long trips in the 280SL (after all, it is indeed a "grand touring" car).  And to increase comfort I'll also be adding seat heaters as well as active seat ventilation (like the CLK500).

P.P.S.  I'm also removing the spare tire.  As you probably know, new SLs do not come with a spare, but rather a can of flat-fixer and a little battery-power compressor.  Without a spare tire the trunk of the 280SL should carry a fair amount of wine back from our trips to Napa Valley!  Oh, one other item; I drove a brand new SL65 the other day...the new V12 SL from AMG pumps out over 600HP and 700 ft. lbs. of torque.  I still think the 280SL is more of a "head-turner" though.  I just want to feel it when I shove 280SL's accelerator down.

Cees Klumper

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2005, 15:59:46 »
Hello Tom. It sounds like you have competent people working on your car. Depending on the cost and what they are actually suggesting to do (what kind of supercharger, what sort of modification would be required, how to get the injection matched up as noted, etc) I would go for it. After my engine was rebuilt, the car is very much peppier, but having owned fast Italian sportscars, I would not mind more 'oomph' in my Pagoda myself. We would for sure all be interested to learn along with you!

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

TR

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2005, 16:41:57 »
Cees -- Thank you so very much for your comments.  I'm glad you've confirmed that I'm not the only one who loves the W113 but would enjoy, as you so accurately say, "more oomph"!

Yes, I think the mechanics are indeed competent.  And we're only in the preliminary consideration / thinking stage right now when it comes to adding a supercharger.  They did  mention Paxton or Judson blowers as possibilities, but these were just initial ideas that had come to mind.  We'll need to research this more ... and any helpful input, positive or negative, from anyone would be very, very welcome.

Cees, you bring up an interesting point about injection match up.  Any specifics here?  Do you mean mechanical / physical match up; or air-to-fuel ratio type of match up; or something else; or all of this?

Here's something you might find interesting / amusing.  In order to get a little more space under the hood we relocated the battery to the trunk, which as mentioned below, no longer has a spare tire!  That new, extra space, where the battery used to sit is surprisingly large...and this may prove useful in terms of providing some room for supercharger hook-up.  BTW, the spare tire we took out was a Contenintal radial TT 714 185HR14 narrow white wall (~3/4" stripe) that had originally come with the car.  I stuck that away for safe keeping.

Regards.

Tom

norton

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2005, 18:46:18 »
I would say that before you go ahead with the supercharger project you become drinking buddies with,or marry the first born of a MB fuel injection expert.  :D

TR

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2005, 20:42:28 »
Norton -- Thanks, and I'm sure you're right.  But the good news is that I am indeed a drinking buddy of my lead mechanic!

I've been doing some web searches on the subject of supercharging older, small displacement cars.  I've not found anything for W113s.  But remember the Volvo 1800 (Maxwell Smart's car used on the old TV series "Get Smart", as I recall)?

Well, here's a link to where that was done:  :  http://www.v-performance.com/pr_super.html#performance

Here’s my little summary from this article: 1968 Volvo 1800ES with a stock B18 engine.  The engine alterations reported were modified head, modified exhaust, bolt-on positive displacement twin-rotor supercharger with an intercooler added.  And based on these changes notice that rear-wheel horsepower reportedly increased from 90 to 173 HP; also that 0-60 MPH time was reduced by 6 seconds (from 13.5 to 7.5 sec).

I’m unsure whether there might be unacceptable complications, in terms of reliability, every day drivability, etc., but this seems a reasonable indicator of possible increased oomph.

Cees Klumper

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #8 on: January 05, 2005, 02:13:25 »
The Volvo's 4-cylinder engine is reputed to be one of the most reliable engines designed (at least in those days). The M130 engine in the 280 SL's also has a very sound reputation - so I would expect that it should be able to handle more strain. Still, it is interesting that there are no examples known of someone having tried adding a supercharger before. As Michael points out, owners did add superchargers to the 190 SL's engine, so maybe you can inquire with our "sister Group", the International 190 SL Group, to get some pointers:

http://forums.190slgroup.com/

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
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norton

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #9 on: January 05, 2005, 04:48:23 »
I thought agent Smart drove a Sunbeam Tiger? 8)

Ben

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2005, 05:15:40 »
I suspect one may end up using carburettors in the ned as I can see no way that the mechanical injection would compensate !

Also you may end up with more power but these cars are not terribly frugal and with a supercharger blowing all the time your gas mileage will be poor !

Perhaps a better was is to do a complete engine transplant. I believe John Haynes in the UK has a 5.0 V8 Pagoda, or the Mechatronic conversions which utilise a modern V6 and triptronic transmission may be a better option.


However various tranplants have been discussed here in detail before, not my cup of tea, but always interested to hear about though!

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

TR

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2005, 07:45:45 »
Ben -- Thanks for the input.  I'll discuss the issue/challenge of matching-up the existing mechanical injection with a supercharger.  This may in fact be a major problem.  And if it too big an issue then that would probably kill the project, as even I am inclined to think it would be a sacrilege to remove the injection unit and switch to carburetors.

Cees -- Great idea; I'll check with the 190SL for some pointers.  Thanks!

Norton -- I believe you're right about it being a Subeam Tiger.

Guys, please keep the thoughts/ideas coming.  Shaving a few seconds off the 280SL's 0-60MPH time would be a hoot!

Benz Dr.

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2005, 10:48:30 »
'' Can't get there from here , Son. ''

  Fuel ratios are the biggest problem. A pump guy might be able to modify the governors but that would likly require a lot of RD time. Someone with a good understanding of air fuel ratios might be able to do it in less time. You would definately have to increase fuel output under load ( the governors do this already )
The Judson is a poor choice although it is period. I had one for my 190SL but never used it. They're quite heavy and you need the oiling system that goes with it to lubricate the rotors. Engine life was cut in half on the 190. Ignition had to be backed off a long ways - anything BTDC would melt a piston.

 Still want to try it?

Daniel G Caron
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1981  300SD
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1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

A Dalton

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2005, 11:00:13 »
<<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
'' Can't get there from here , Son. ''
 
>>

 I agree..

 Be easier to just convert the thing to EFI with a MAF between the air filter and throttle plate, electric injectors/fuel rail with an ECU controller/crank sensor and an 02 sens for closed loop feedback.
 Guess you could say we are straying a bit from original here , huh???????????

TR

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2005, 11:10:27 »
Daniel -- Yipes...that's a real horror story! But one which I greatfully receive.  Thank you for the input.

You mention having had a Judson blower on your 190SL but never using it.  I assume it was used at some point and that damage was incurred - yes?  Clearly you have good knowledge about the subject.

Hmmm ... Now this would be anything but period correct.  But how about if one removed the existing mechanical fuel injection and replaced it with a modern FI along with a supercharger??  A thoroughly modern, matched set, if you will.

At some point I may give up this wild idea.  But if a '68 1.8 litre Volvo can be supercharged and then achieve a 0-60MPH time approaching that of my '04 CLK500 then I guess I remain interested in the concept (at this point at least).

All comments will be most appreciated.

Thanks much!

Tom in Boise

TR

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2005, 11:20:23 »
A Dalton -- You were reading my mind as I was typing my reply to Daniel!

Yes indeed, I'd clearly be straying from original.  But in the event something like this actually happens I'll promise to keep all of the stuff together so it could be returned to original.

Anyone care to venture a guess as to what the 0-60MPH time might be for a tight 280SL if this were done???

Tom

Cees Klumper

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2005, 12:42:00 »
Actually it was Simon Templar, played by Roger Moore, in the TV series "The Saint", that drove the Volvo 1800. Interestingly, the series producers used the Volvo after Jaguar let them know they were not interested in cooperating with the show.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
Cees Klumper
1969 Mercedes 280 SL automatic
1968 Ford Mustang 302 V8
1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Coupe 1600
1962 FIAT 1500S OSCA convertible
1972 Lancia Fulvia Coupe 1.3
1983 Porsche 944 2.5
1990 Ford Bronco II

ted280sl

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2005, 14:12:50 »
This is definitely off point but, it is always fun to share useless trivia. Maxwell Smart drove a Sunbeam Tiger which definitely had "oomph". The Tiger version had a Ford 289 under the hood.
Ted '69 280SL standard w/ more "oomph" than an automatic

TR

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2005, 14:39:28 »
Fun stuff!  But I wonder; how might that small-engined supercharged Volvo 1800, with a reported 0-60 time of 7.5 secs, have done against Maxwell Smart's hopped up Ford 289 Tiger?  Heh, heh...

norton

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2005, 14:57:27 »
As stated by the good Doctor, the injection pump is going to be the big problem with trying to supercharger your SL. You will need to find a way to "boost reference" the injection pump, as boost increases the pump output will also have to increase, to keep the air/fuel mixture correct. Not sure how it works, but this is common on turbo and supercharged diesel engines, and the Mercedes turbo diesel injection pump might be the key to making this work on the SL. ;)

J. Huber

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2005, 17:36:01 »
Man, I guess I am just a stick in the mud -- because I am content whenever my car starts, moves, handles, and shines like the 1963 230SL was designed to ...  :)

James
63 230SL
James
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waltklatt

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2005, 17:53:33 »
Hello Tom,

You might want to contact Karl Middlehauve of M100(600, 6.3, 6.9) fame.
He has tinkered with the mechanical IP of the 600 engines to get a supercharger to work.  He also has an extensive collection of cars, some with his modifications.

Cheers,
Walter Klatt
PS: I've also commited the sacrilege of converting a 1967 230SL to a diesel 4 cylinder with a 5 spd manual.  Even worse than that is the car has only 4,723 miles since new.

A Dalton

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2005, 18:09:42 »
That is so far over the top that it is actualy pretty Coooool....

norton

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2005, 20:27:17 »
Walter's right, I'd forgotten about Karl, Here's a link to his site http://www.mbgrand600.com/
Hey Walter how about some pic's of the diesel SL, you sick puppy :D

TR

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Re: How about supercharging a 280SL?
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2005, 21:45:32 »
Norton, Walter, Guys -- This is great stuff!  Please keep 'er coming!!

If we actually get this done, it would be interesting to see how a supercharged 280SL stacks up against the acceleration of my '04 CLK500 (which ain't bad).

Assuming the rear-wheel horsepower increase of the little Volvo 1800ES (mentioned below) actually went up 83 HP, then what might a tight 280SL with a supercharger addition crank out?  Could the 280SLs engine be pushing maybe in the range of 275-300 HP?!  I'd think torque should increase pretty sharply too.