Detailed pics of unmolested very original '64 230

[n/a]

I have been contacted by several members requesting detailed pics of one aspect or another of   my unmolested and original, '64 230SL

I am more than happy to oblige. Cars like mine can be a valuable resource (along with period photographs, articles, brochures etc) for those wanting to get details right on their own cars. Other than the radio fitment (see my other posting on that issue posted 28th December), the related fitting of speakers to the kick panels, and the replacement of the rear shock-absorbers, nothing has been modified at all.

I changed all the radiator and heater hoses when I bought the car for obvious reasons, and the car was recently fitted with its second set of tyres, but other than maintenance-related issues the car is as it left the factory minus what 40 years and 78,000 miles will do even when pampered by two extremely dedicated owners.

Click here to see the pics uploaded to date. Remember that each of the 'thumbnail' pics is merely a key to full-screen detailed pics - simply click on the thumbnail of any pic you want to see in detail. 33 more pics were posted 12th January in response a flood of emails I have had from interested parties, and more will follow. Feel free to check updates.

Contact me with any additional photos or details you may require and I will be happy to oblige as soon as I can.

Cheers!

Neil.Update 13 January[/b]

Also for those interested, note that   my very rare original 1954 VW Beetle Karmann Cabriolet is off to a new owner in the UK.

[Jazn]

I would be interested in seeing what kind of finish is on your brake dust shields.  Also engine compartment pics.

[Douglas]

Neil,

Sounds like a real find. I'd like to see pix of the engine as well.

I've never seen a 230 SL with original firewall insulation. Is yours still there?

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[Eryck]

Great find. Mine's a 65 230SL so yours will certainly be a good reference. I used to live in Australia and know that these cars are not easy to find down there. Congrats. Great color too, by the way.

1965 230 SL White Manual
Hong Kong

[LFrank]

Mine is also totally original and unmolested ... just not "mint"!

What color code is yours?

LFrank
Washington DC
65 230 sl - auto
DB334/Hellblau

[Mike Heagney]

Hi Neil,
I have a 64 but is stripped down to the bodyshell. It was built Feb 64. I live on the north coast NSW, and would appreciate access to pics of the correct assembly.
Thanks,
Mike.

[Jonny B]

Neil,

I think I speak for many others, to say thanks for posting these detail and reference photos! The chance to see original detail does not come along that often.

Even though I have a later car (250SL) it is still worth while to see the details like the ones you took the time to share.

Many thanks,
Jonny B.

Jonny B
1967 250SL Auto

[gugel]

Neil,

Thanks for posting the photos -- they're very useful.

A question:  are you sure the oil dipstick is original?  I ask because my '65 230SL, which was very close to original when I got it, has exactly the same kind of stick.  I had thought the stick had been replaced, but if yours is original mine certainly is also.  If so, I wonder why it was marked 220SE?

Chris Earnest

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by gugel

Neil,

A question:  are you sure the oil dipstick is original?  I ask because my '65 230SL, which was very close to original when I got it, has exactly the same kind of stick.  I had thought the stick had been replaced, but if yours is original mine certainly is also.  If so, I wonder why it was marked 220SE?

Chris Earnest

Yep, definitely original. You'll find reference to this in other posts, and also in literature. Why? Well the 230SL engine was, after all, a 'worked over' 200SE motor in the first place.

Neil

'64 230SL
Melbourne Australia

[Douglas]

Nice pix, Neil. Looks like a gentle scrubbing of the undercarriage will reveal a beautiful horizon blue underside.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[pagodapete]

Aussie,

Very nice detail photos on your web page.  It looks like a wonderfully original car.  One minor point though.  One caption under a photo mentions an "oil bath" air cleaner.  I've never heard of that on a Pagoda.  If you remove the top of the air filter canister I think you will find a normal air filter element.  If it is soaked in oil it is because of blow-by coming in from the crank case breather.  By the way my '50 Ford F2 pickup has an oil bath air cleaner.

Brian Peters
Motoring Investments

[A Dalton]

Oil Bath filtering was a common option on Africa/Australia designation chassis...

[mdsalemi]

Hi Gents,

I don't exactly know what everyone means by "unmolested" but from the looks of those pictures, something is not adding up.  If the entire engine bay is the same age, it should have aged at about the same rate.  But, look at some of these pix; notably the firewall plate and condition of the firewall pad; they are well aged and even in worse condition then some others I've seen of similar age.  Then compare this to what appears to be a variety of new or newer clamps, and some other shiny items in the bay.  Hmmm.....

My suggestion is that more has been changed on this then we are being led to believe, with all due respect.  some parts look like they have been removed and cleaned. You can't have that kind of mix of conditions in an engine bay and claim no molestation!  Unless the engine bay has NEVER been out of your sight or never been worked on without you being present, as the police say, the "chain of custody" has been broken.  Molestation is such a nasty word!  Many of us have cars in varying states of condition that have pretty reasonable engine bays.  Something in that mix of like-new looking things and awful things doesn't add up.  Am I the only one who as noticed this?  Doug?  JonnyB?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Tom]

Hard to define "unmolested."  However, there are some interesting items to note:

1.  The firewall pad in the early w113 cars was not very robust and deteriorated pretty rapidly-unlike the later diamond pattern.  A firewall pad in poor condition does not mean the car was molested-just that it is old.  I did not see a claim related to mileage for the car.

2.  There are some clamps that were replaced, but the clamps over time will fail to hold fluids, especially those under higher pressure like the cooling hoses.

3.  Brake fluid reservoir looks too white-maybe it was replaced.  Unlike the later style with two reservoir areas, the older single reservoir style is still available new so it could be recently replaced.  Or the car could have so few miles that it remained white due to lack of engine heat yellowing the material.  [Edit-close up photo in the gallery is excellent-easy to believe the reservoir is original for a 78,000 mile car]

4.  The overflow tank has some evidence of a decal-this would indicate a relatively low mileage car.

5.  Paint marks on shock towers indicate originality.

6.  Headlight buckets have hand written numbers on them and the wires don't have any over spray-indicates the headlight bucket area has not been painted.  A little rust at the bottom of the headlight bay suggests they have never been painted.

Using my 13,000 mile 71 280sl as a rough proxy and reference, looks pretty unmolested to me.  Congrats to the owner-nice find!


1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

Hi Gents,

I don't exactly know what everyone means by "unmolested" but from the looks of those pictures, something is not adding up.  If the entire engine bay is the same age, it should have aged at about the same rate.  But, look at some of these pix; notably the firewall plate and condition of the firewall pad; they are well aged and even in worse condition then some others I've seen of similar age.  Then compare this to what appears to be a variety of new or newer clamps, and some other shiny items in the bay.  Hmmm.....

My suggestion is that more has been changed on this then we are being led to believe, with all due respect.  some parts look like they have been removed and cleaned. You can't have that kind of mix of conditions in an engine bay and claim no molestation!  Unless the engine bay has NEVER been out of your sight or never been worked on without you being present, as the police say, the "chain of custody" has been broken.  Molestation is such a nasty word!  Many of us have cars in varying states of condition that have pretty reasonable engine bays.  Something in that mix of like-new looking things and awful things doesn't add up.  Am I the only one who as noticed this?  Doug?  JonnyB?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

Well, well, where do I start? Firstly, I hope we are not all 'gents' here. Surely some females can raise their hands? After all, the SL was often thought of as a ladies' car in its day. Besides, any self-respecting Aussie male would not think of himself as a 'Gent'.

Unmolested I would hardly see as virgin. I would see it as unmodified, unchanged, left as original. No extra holes drilled, no extras fitted, that kind of thing. I was not 'offering' the proverbial virgin here.

To continue the sexual parallels, removing and cleaning some parts (while changing the totally virginal and useless radiator hoses and heater hoses as I have identified), I obviously replaced any clamps that were beyond redemption. I also cleaned and repainted the rusty items that I was able to salvage. Practicality beats stupidity every time. Like any gracefully ageing, but even-more-beautiful-for-it 40 year old, a bit here or there needs a bit of attention now and again. But if the 40yo beauty has been looked after properly, the beauty is more than skin-deep. It's real. Not just a nip and tuck and facelift. A Botox-free zone!

I am not selling the car, or offering it to anyone under any false pretences. I am simply saying, "if you can benefit from this very original and - dare I repeat it - unmolested car, please feel free to use the pictures as you see fit, and you can even request more." I am not, Michael, leading anyone to believe anything. I'm not even trying to prove anything! I simply know, having restored countless cars in my youth, just how valuable it can be to have a look at the details of someone's original car. Where did that wire go? Should this bit be black or body colour? Should this be highly polished or dull? How did that hose run past the other hoses? What colour was the dipstick? (a valid point which I deliberately photographed - did anyone notice the trace of bright red on the circular handle of the dipstick that indicated it was red, while the rest is black?)

I suggest, Michael, that you leave your suspicions to more worthwhile endeavours, and let those many fellow owners who can benefit, even with some appreciation, from my sharing of this level of detail of this very original, unmodified, unrusted, un-repainted, un-retrimmed, unrestored, and unmolested car, do so in peace. You may have gained nothing from my efforts, and I am sorry that this is the case. But many will. And they will get their restoration correct as a result.

It's no wonder I gave up the show car circuit many, many years ago. Restored cars rule (unlike in the vintage guitar fraternity). Gloss levels way in excess of what was achievable 40 years ago will always get the trophy. Polished aluminium where the original was sandcast will do the same. An abundance of reproduction transfers and stickers will mesmerise the judges more than any subtle traces left after 40 years of use (not abuse).

I just enjoy originality and genuineness, whether in the cars I drive, the people I am blessed with knowing, or the guitars I play. And I suspect from my many emails that I am not the only one!

Mike Heagney, your request will be seen to soon! Thanks for your interest.

Cheers,

Neil.

'64 manual Horizon Blue unmolested 230SL
'61 Porsche 356B Super90 unmolested coupe (just sold)
'54 VW Beetle Karmann Cabriolet unmolested original RHD (for sale)

[hands_aus]

Hey Guys,

I think there has been the usual maintenance....hose and clamp replacements etc.

Unmolested but not entirely original ....after all the car IS 40 years old and if it hasn't been maintained (necessitating replacement of minor parts like clamps etc) then it certainly will need lots of minor things done to it soon enough.

Didn't the 230sl have the coil and distributor covers?
When did the plastic fan blades came in to use?
Did only the manual cars have an accelerator dampener? My early 250sl auto doesn't have one.

I imagine Neil is taking some time out to treat the small surface rust areas that are visible under the brake fluid reservoir and the radiator overflow tank and the various seams and under the area in the pic which shows the cotter pin clamps.

Neil, one suggestion check all your old cotter pin clamps for tightness. If they are loose you could end up with vacuum problems which will affect your brakes and general running.
I had that problem and the car was running very poorly, also my brakes seemed to be giving me poor response which made me wrongly doubt my brake booster.
I replaced the hoses and clamps and the problems disappeared.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Tom

Hard to define "unmolested."  However, there are some interesting items to note:

1.  The firewall pad in the early w113 cars was not very robust and deteriorated pretty rapidly-unlike the later diamond pattern.  A firewall pad in poor condition does not mean the car was molested-just that it is old.  I did not see a claim related to mileage for the car.

2.  There are some clamps that were replaced, but the clamps over time will fail to hold fluids, especially those under higher pressure like the cooling hoses.

3.  Brake fluid reservoir looks too white-maybe it was replaced.  Unlike the later style with two reservoir areas, the older single reservoir style is still available new so it could be recently replaced.  Or the car could have so few miles that it remained white due to lack of engine heat yellowing the material.

4.  The overflow tank has some evidence of a decal-this would indicate a relatively low mileage car.

5.  Paint marks on shock towers indicate originality.

6.  Headlight buckets have hand written numbers on them and the wires don't have any over spray-indicates the headlight bucket area has not been painted.  A little rust at the bottom of the headlight bay suggests they have never been painted.

Using my 13,000 mile 71 280sl as a rough proxy and reference, looks pretty unmolested to me.  Congrats to the owner-nice find!


1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)

Well noted Tom!

1)Original and documented 78,000 miles. Decomposition of pad probably more a product of environmental conditions than mileage in any case.
2)Exactly.
3)All indications are that it is original. The underbonnet area was always kept very clean according to the two previous owners, which would probably also have led to some deterioration of the firewall pad (?). Besides, my claim is not that nothing has ever been replaced - simply that it has not been modified (molested). After all, I did just bid on and win that ash tray with lid so I could replace the one in my car that has lost its lid - hardly an example of molestation!
4)Agreed - and the pic should help restorers get positioning right - my sole aim in this exercise.
5)Ditto
6)The whole reason, once again, I included these shots is so restorers can see (and reproduce - the best that they can ever hope for having forever lost true originality) what was original. This car has never been resprayed - to me almost the ultimate mark of lack of molestation! Maybe it's the extra kg of lacquer that shows in the options on the data card...

quote:Using my 13,000 mile 71 280sl as a rough proxy and reference, looks pretty unmolested to me.  Congrats to the owner-nice find!

Many thanks and agreed!

Neil.

[mdsalemi]

LADIES and Gentlemen--and the occasional Bruce from Oz--

Well, Mr. Neil offered in bold blue text in his first post that his car was ...totally unmolested and original, mint...  Now we know that what he means is unmodified--not wholly original. Now that we have the word molestation defined as unmodified, not original, I suggest that there are many many cars with an engine bay like this.  And can you actually look at this and call it mint?  He offered something as if it were extremely rare and unique, and sorry, I'm not buying it.  Yes there are modifications that people have made to the engine bays, but these are the exception not the rule.  More often they were made to correct some kind of deficency such as the unavailability of the Bosch electronic ignition.  Of more value would NOT be the engine bay, but a lot of interior details and body work details.  These are the things that would probably be more rare.

It is kind that he offered these photos, and for that I thank him and so do others who have early 113's.  But one can have a re-sprayed car, one with a lot of body work, and still have a relatively original engine bay.  I have seen several like this.

The point I was making is that there has been enough "work" done on the inside of that engine bay--I pointed out some, Tom Sargeant a bit more--that's evident from the pictures that nobody can say with certainty that every hose is in the right place; that every clamp is the same brand or style that was originally installed; that every wire, tube, hose, and cable crosses the same part of the engine bay in the same place, etc.  We simply can't know the truth here.  So while a valuable resource I don't believe it is too unique, and thus should not be offered as such.

I didn't offer up Neil's car to such scrutiny.  Nor did I choose the word "molested".  Neil did.  But when something like this is offered, you can expect some commentary.  There are a lot of early 113's out there that may be in varying states of repair, but have engine bays virtually the same.  Not everyone is trying to Supercharge the car (sorry Tom in Boise ) and the amount of modifications are minimal.  Most have to do with electrics and relays.

And as for the show circuit, here in the USA at least, in MBCA sanctioned events, polished aluminum, brilliant restoration, fancy paint will not get you far.  The Starfest winner this year was a wholly original 113, complete with well preserved cracks in the leather and similar marks of age.  Clean, yes.  Original, yes.  But, the judging criteria emphasizes originality not beauty.

One last item here.  I simply used the knowledge I've gained over the years with my car and all the work I did with restoration and research to point out some issues and claims made about the car.  I did not in any way, say anything detrimental to or about its author.  Members of this group don't do that.  Opinions should be respected.  Pictures were offered and claims were made about those pictures. When one suggests that "suspicions" (I said suggestions) should be placed in different endeavors is straddling the line of respect and borders on a personal attack.  We don't do that here.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[n/a]

Molestation is such a nasty word.

Bruce from Oz.

[Douglas]

I would call that engine bay a clean original engine bay. I would even call it "unmolested." Yes, hoseclamps have been changed and it's missing the top bracket for the battery. (Also, some tools in the pouch.) Stuff like that. In general though, it's tidy and has been well preserved without any pretense of "like new" condition. (Most owners would have at least changed that expansion tank cap!)

From what I've seen, every 230SL has decaying firewall insulation. It was weaker than the later material used on the 280SL. That's unavoidable.

The question is, do you take an engine bay like this and cad plate the injection lines, etc. or do you leave it as-is? That's a matter of personal taste.

The only thing I take issue with from Neil is that his rocker panel covers are dark blue. There is no way that it came that way from the factory. I've seen some of the very earliest 230SLs in period photos with body color covers down there, but never a contrasting color like dark blue. I'm confident enough to say that's simply not the way they ever came.

Make no mistake -- that's a very nice car that appears to be mostly original to my eye.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[n/a]

quote:Originally posted by Douglas


The only thing I take issue with from Neil is that his rocker panel covers are dark blue. There is no way that it came that way from the factory. I've seen some of the very earliest 230SLs in period photos with body color covers down there, but never a contrasting color like dark blue. I'm confident enough to say that's simply not the way they ever came.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

Well, I can't be sure because I didn't take delivery of the car when new, (keeping in mind the famous quote "Unless the (car) has NEVER been out of your sight or never been worked on without you being present, as the police say, the "chain of custody" has been broken"), but every indication to me is still that that's how it was - dark blue to match the original (onopened let alone unmolested!) dark blue soft top.

Then leafing through my Mercedes Gold Portfolio book, with reprints of original, unmolested articles and photographs, I see on pages 9, 21, 25, 26, 31, 32, 35, 41, 51, 59, 60, 61, 67, 74, 77, 85, 134, 147, 157, 158, 161, 162,165 and 172 clear photographs of other SLs that, like mine, must have been molested at the factory!

I must say that I'm confident enough to say that SLs came both ways (body colour and contrasting colour on the rocker panel covers), and that my Horizon Blue '64 has always had dark blue under the doors.

The owner who sold the car to me (the second owner of the car, who had known the car and its first owner from the time it was purchased - it took him 30 years to finally pursuade the owner to sell it to him) is also absolutely adamant that the car has always had the dark blue (almost looks black, and is textured, not glossy like the main paintwork) under the door line.

Everyone's reality is different.

Maybe just as well!

Neil (or Bruce to some)
Melbourne, Australia.

[Ben]

Congrats Neil on a wonderful original car. I think the "M" word is why people here are getting defensive!

I too have a '64 and these photos and details have helped me a lot to identify what mine should, and in most cases DOES look like !

It IS nice to see yellow dots on the shock towers, numbers on the headlamp buckets, the red primer on the front of the engine block etc and so what if a few clamps have been changed.

Lets not get too intense here, the man has kindly volunteered to photo ANY part of the car for ANY/ALL of use and I for one really appreciate this gesture. Is there any 113 out there that is exactly as it left the factory ............and how do we know since the late Frank Mallory (RIP) requested certain special finished from the factory we now know that there was a channel for these requests and who knows who the original owner of this 113 was or who he knew. He may have requested dark blue sills and got them.

 I've never seen anything but bodycolour or black but since the finish is clearly different than the rest of the car these were obvioulsy done at a different point, most likely numbered to the car and painted as per request. It was only a shaort while ago I recall the dispute that they were anything other than black, and that the wheel wells were always body colour, I dont believe this either, I feel the Country were consigned may have been the deciding factor ! Even new Japanese cars destined to remain in Japan are not undersealed and this is 2005 !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[Eryck]

Thanks for the pics. I sleep better now. I had thought that I had to replace the '220SE' dipstick in my car!

My car is no where near the condition of yours but like you, I am glad that most things on it are 'original' albeit worn with age.

Was your engine bay cleaned? I just did mine (with degreaser & toothbrush) and the patina looks similar.

Thanks again for the pics

1965 230 SL White Manual
Hong Kong

[Ben]

Yeah the 220SE dipstick is original, its a bored M127 engine after all !

Think I need to get mine cleaned, it was lovely after I rebuilt the motor but the year'round daily mileage has given it the "unloved" look !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[J. Huber]

Not to restir anything, but Michael does have a point about the "mint" aspect of the description. I for one actually opened the pictures expecting a pristine car that had somehow cheated the sands of time. You know, like a Van Gogh bought at a garage sale covered with dust... What I discovered, instead, were some very interesting and no doubt useful shots of a nice car that is quite original and apparently "unmodified." For this, I thank you Neil. Not your fault, I had such high hopes...

As an aside, in addition to these original pics, I also welcome photos from nicely restored cars such as Michael's (and Ed's and others). These can also be very instructive and motivating.


James
63 230SL