Newbie Question: What are the gaps caused by?

[Miloslav Maun]

Please have a look at those photographs and tell me how is it possible that the hardtop is sitting so oddly. Can this be just because the top has not been tightened?

Also, the bonnet seems not to be very well aligned. Maybe not closed properly? Or something more serious.

This is a car I am thinking of byuing. I have not seen it in real and all I have are those photos.

Thanks in advance for any help

Download Attachment: MVC-029S.JPG
40.76 KB

Download Attachment: MVC-003S.JPG
39.08 KB

[mdsalemi]

Muf,

I wouldn't buy a car like this without looking at it person.  If you can't see what you are buying, best look elsewhere.  Only regret can come out of this.  Also understand that you are looking at a 35 year old car; it won't be possible no matter how many you look at to find one "perfect".  What level of 35 year old imperfection are you willing to put up with, and how can you be sure that anyone looking at this for you will have the same attitude?

The way the hard top is fitting looks a little peculiar, like it is tilted forward a bit.  Perhaps it was just laid in place and not locked down for the photo.

As for the bonnet, it looks ill fitting as well.  This could be the result of many things.  First, it may have been removed for some service and not reinstalled properly.  This is a known issue; it isn't always easy to get it to fit well particularly if you don't know what you are doing.

Second, and this is more important, is that these bonnets were hand fit to this hand built car.  They are all slightly different in size.  What this means is that a "used" or junkyard bonnet may not fit the same as the original.  So, if the car was in some kind of accident and a used bonnet were fitted, it could have some irregular fit issues.  Along those lines, the new bonnets (which run around $2,000 or more) are supplied oversized and are trimmed to fit the opening on each car when installed properly by a body man who knows what he is doing.  I had a junkyard bonnet and my restorer--a perfectionist--wouldn't work with it.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Miloslav Maun]

Wow, I did not know the thing with the oversized bonnets! This is very impressing.
Well I do not want to go and buy the car without looking at it anymore. I must see it first. But the air ticket from EU to US are not cheap.... So I'd like to know maximum from the photos.

[Miloslav Maun]

Michael,
Thank you for your speed. You sent the answer really swiftly.

What do you make of the gap below the hardtop?

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by Muf

Michael,
Thank you for your speed. You sent the answer really swiftly.

What do you make of the gap below the hardtop?

As I mentioned it could be that the hard top is not locked down properly, that it was just "laid in place" for the photo.  Most of these cars have a bit of a gap there, but on the one you show it does look tilted forward and the gap excessive.

My hard top is unrestored and sits in my basement; the car to me is a roadster and should be driven topless.  So I am not the best person to ask about this.  Some of our members leave their hard top on all the time, and it would be best to get some photos from the rest of the group.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[Douglas]

Looks like the hardtop isn't latched tightly. The chrome handle on the driver side isn't fully tightened. Perhaps that may explain the hardtop fit, but I can't be sure.

I agree with Mike on this car. It has a lot of red flags to my eye -- the worst one being the fit of the hood/bonnet. My first thought is a poorly repaired front end collision. Note how the grill and driver-side headlight assembly also don't fit properly,

Also, that front bumper looks like it was from a 280SL parts car judging by the holes on either side. Again, signs of a repair done "on the cheap."

Even the horizontal trim behind the rear wheels is installed at the wrong angle.

Here's an example of a 230SL that looks to have good panel fit and, to my eye, looks like it could be worth investigating further:

http://www.centralvalleyclassics.com/cars/Mercedes/65230SL/65230sl.html

Compare these 2 cars and you'll see a significant difference.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[Miloslav Maun]

Thank you guys for your valuable opinions.

To be honest, I am searching for a pagoda for a low buck. (as you americans say - or at least I hope it sounds something like this :-))

The seller asks 10500 USD plus some "doc fee" of about 200 USD.
He sent me about 20 pictures from which I reckognize few issues:
First, the side markers were not installed before 1968 (if my info is right) and this car is a 1966 230SL. Well, nevermind. Holes can be welded.

The second thing was the misaligned bonnet.
I did see the red screws on the top of the front bumper but I thought that they were a residue after some fog lights. Now I agree after seeing some US specs. 280SL's they are rather holed to fix the bumper guards.

I know a very good paint shop (they already painted my porsche 911 so I know they are really good). They can fix the bonnet and even repaint the whole car for less than 1800 USD (yes, prices in the Czech Republic are so low).

The interior of the car looks good to me, it even has the original radio.

The car should run fine and not smoke. No rust, I was told.
If you wish, you can look at some more pictures. I will be glad to hear your opinions.

Download Attachment: MVC-001S.JPG
39.04 KB

Download Attachment: MVC-007S.JPG
38.1 KB

Download Attachment: MVC-010S.JPG
37.93 KB

Download Attachment: MVC-017S.JPG
39.79 KB

Download Attachment: MVC-032S.JPG
39.24 KB

[gugel]

I too would be very cautious about buying this car.  The bonnet alignment looks like it couldn't easily be corrected just by adjusting the hinges, and it's hard to understand why the hardtop fits as it does.  Those things are _heavy_, so even if the latches weren't fully latched, the top should fit fine.  It does look like the car may have been in an accident, possibly a bad one, and not repaired properly.

Chris Earnest

[Douglas]

Let me ask you this -- what's good about this car? I see a lot of details that show a complete lack of regard for  decent standards of workmanship. And that's just the parts you can see -- imagine what's underneath that paint.  

If you want a car you can re-paint inexpensively, at least start with a straight one.

Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220

[Miloslav Maun]

I can see you are all quite skeptical about this car ....
You spoiled my joy but maybe saved my money :-)
OK, if not this one, do you know a straight one in this price level? Preferably east coast.

[hauser]

To me this car car screams "Keep Searching"  This car can also be used as an example of what not to buy!  

Personally I would keep up the search for a better car.  Remember that what you'ld spend on getting this one up to specs would probably buy you a very good driver.

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[rwmastel]

Muf,

If you ask for opinions here, you will surly get them!  Here are some observations not previously noted:

- Lower trim (mostly) missing on driver's side.  The small existing piece by rear wheel is rivited on, but should be clipped on(?) or affixed in a manner that does not show rivit or screw heads.
- Existing trim missing rubber insert.
- Radio is modern replacement.
- Steering wheel is white, but stick shift knob is black.  Shouldn't they be the same?
- No rubber floor mats in foot wells.
- Odd (non-original) valve cover breather tube leading back to intake manifold.

I would think it would be easy to find a good Pagoda in Europe, is there a reason you are shopping in the USA?

Also, you say you don't want to spend much to get a car.  Even with low labor rates in your country, it will cost a good bit of money to make a poorly maintained car into a reliable driver.  It's always smartest to buy the best quality car you can afford.  If you want a reliable driver and can't afford it now, then save more money and get it a year or two later.  Prices on these cars will go up, but not very quickly.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420

[Ricardo]

Muf
I'll add an opinion for the other side of the coin.
 
How much car can you expect for $10,000? At that price there are sure to be imperfections and if you are looking at that price then you plan on doing some work. If it's as good as it looks and really doesn't have much rust or engine problems, then you can enjoy driving the car now and do the work when you can. Most people on this list are a little fixated on originality, so mixed parts and changes that may not be correct for the year are frowned upon (side markers etc.) but this doesn't mean the car will be a problem.

Having a black shift knob is a small problem, missing trim is a small problem, even the hood/bonnet alignment could be a small problem. The parts are available and many on this list enjoy bringing their cars up to near original conditions, but many didn't find their cars in this condition. If it is a hobby to own one of these cars, then you want things to do, other than just drive it.

If you want a show/concours car then this may not be it, but there are many examples that started out worse looking than this one and are now considered show cars. Even if it turns out to have more problems than it appears, you wouldn't be looking if you couldn't afford to keep one, it will just take a little more time/money. The car is nearly 40 years old, it will need work done. Even the low mile, perfect ones, have to have work done on them.

Ricardo
'67 250sl ($10,000 4 years ago and didn't look as good... no regrets)

[waltklatt]

Hello Newbie,

First thing I would do is lift up carpets or floormats inside the car look at the floors for wrinkles and rust.  Same for the trunk too.  Ask if the car has been repaired or restored?

 Check with the shop that repaired it and ask them questions about the car and their work-look at other projects they are doing.  Clean work or sloppy?

Then put the car up on a lift to look underneath, pay attention to the straightness of the panels, I suspect the car is bent in the middle, as the hardtop doesn't shut closely in the far rear and the escutcheons on the sides near the doortops are very tight.

How do the gaps look around the doors?  Open the doors and check the folds of the door skin around the shell.  They could have replaced the floors and rockers but without a brack the keep the true shape of the car and it sagged in the rear.  Check the motor number for the correct engine type.  The trims and little adjustment on the hood are easily corrected.

Drive the car over a rough road to see scuttle shake, watch the hood if it moves excessively(it should move very minutely), check door strikes and trunk latches for uneven wear, odd paint masking lines around them or deep shiny scratches(they should shut with minimum effort).  If you have to slam them shut, something is wrong.

This is the right place to ask questions and get ideas and solutions.
DO you have access to another W113SL in the same area that you can compare with?

Walter Klatt
1963 230SL
1965 230SL
1967 220SL diesel

[n/a]

This car hass many obvious "issues". The nose - hood fit is terrible and indicates prior collision work. You can probably expect a lot of bondo covering up rust. If you go see this car, take an experienced 113 specialist with you. Don't let your emotions overcome your better judgement.

Tom Hanson
Parts Manager
MBUSA Classic Center
Irvine CA

[Miloslav Maun]

I am not the guy who gets overcome by emotions when spending so much money. I have already shopped for a 911 two years ago and now my car belongs to the nices and most original examples of porsche 911 in the Czech Republic.
Back to this pagoda: the seller (car dealer) told me that he has no knowledge of previous colissions (and this was my very first question even before I saw the pictures). I know - never trust a car dealer :-)
The car should be restored with no rust. Well...
The radio which is installed is of course ugly but the original becker is supplied.
The molding on the left side should be already in place, the photos were taken earlier.
Is it really so that the color of the steering wheel matches the shift button?

[n/a]

The shift knob should be the same color as the steering wheel. You sound like you have a good sense for shopping a classic. I can't believe there was no prior damage. The hood should line up perfectly with the nose panel. Very critical area. Look for the "ridges" on the inner edges of the headlight openings. They should continue past the ridges on the chrome headlight surrounds. Quite often when a nose panel is replaced, the ridges are gone and the reinforcement behind the panel just gets improperly straightened. The hood will never line up properly when this is done.

Tom Hanson
Parts Manager
MBUSA Classic Center
Irvine CA

[Ben]

I think they guys ahave covered it all but just to add that if very obvious things are put back together in a crude and incorrect manner, the chrome trims/rivets etc. then some of the more critical and hidden expensive work may have been done the same way. If someone has done a body repair and paint job properly they wont spoil it by not spending an extra couple of hours refitting the trim properly.

This is what would scare me away from this car !

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[Ricardo]

I don't know Ben....it's also possible that the body shop did quality work until it became apparent the customer wouldn't come through with the extra money it might have cost to finish it right. The nature of this kind of work makes it difficult to accurately estimate how much time it will take. Sometimes customers want a price in advance and if the work increases(found rust) and more is taken on, they may not be willing to pay more and in the end the restorer just wants to get the car out of his shop and on to a more reasonable customer. The final details are whipped together and what started out as quality work, ends up with some lousy finishing details and a lot of hard feelings. Not neccesarily a bad restoration, just not finished right.
I mean you have to wonder why someone would have done this much work and then left some glaring problems.
I think it's pretty hard to draw conclusions from a few photos. Far better to examine the car in person or have someone look at it.
Ricardo

[Ben]

Ricardo, I understand your point but I cant see any restorer, with pride in his/her work, finishing something in a hap-hazzard way.

These restorations/repairs/paint jobs are a mobile add for the establishment and nobody would dirty their bib that way for the sake of another few hours.

"They are only as good as their last job "

Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.

[Miloslav Maun]

I also wonder why would somebody want to put the ugly side repeaters to a car which originally didn't have them. I think they had to change whole fenders from a 280 SL. But why didn't they simply weld the gaps?

[Ricardo]

Ben
I agree, especially if we are talking about "Restoration" shops, but I wonder how many 113's have been fixed up by shops that aren't 113 specialists really and have had limited budgets to work with? Again it doesn't mean the work is poor quality and we don't know the rest of this story. We might be assuming too much.
Muf
Could be that a previous owner thought that the sidelights were a saftey improvement, and "wanted" them.

This winter hibernation stuff brings out the devil in me... :twisted:
Ricardo