Author Topic: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?  (Read 15805 times)

n/a

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dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« on: January 12, 2005, 08:21:08 »
I have spent some hours searching the various topics, but cannot find anyone who has experienced what I have just experienced...

I very recently purchased a very original, unrestored '64 RHD original Australian delivery 230SL - plenty of details (and controversy) of it in other postings. At the time of purchase I changed all filters Including fuel), hoses, points, plugs, lubricants, and other fluids.

My situation is this; the car has been running stunningly well. Cold starts great, hot starts great, an idle to die for, great fuel economy and power etc etc etc.

Today, after getting home from an appointment the car died as I approached my driveway. Simply wouldn't idle. I thought it strange, but just started it again and drove up the driveway.

Then I had an evening engagement with a very special lady. The SL was polished and clean, the night was balmy, the top was down, and I set off to her home. Once at traffic lights it suddenly died at idle again, but started before too long and seemed to run fine. A few kilometres later it seemed to suddenly miss on three cylinders or so intermittently, but then come good. Then a few more KMs and it died completely, never to start again. I checked points (looked good), plenty of spark under cranking, 'cracked' several pressure points with the ignition on and fuel pump running to ensure I had fuel delivery (seemed like great pressure and flow), but on 'cracking' the lines from the FI pump to the injectors I seem to have nothing at all.

This has really mystified me.

I had to get a lift back home to pick up my trusty old '83 W-123 230TE, hire a car trailer, cancel the evening's events and tow the damn thing back home!

Any pointers?

Dead on arrival: a pic of an end to a failed evening!



mdsalemi

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2005, 09:07:01 »
Hello Neil,

As I am battling (well, I'll pick up the issue again in spring) fuel related issues your problem is near and dear to my heart.

I think you may have discovered part of the problem; unless I read it incorrectly, you may have good (apparent) fuel pressure from the fuel pump, but NOT where the fuel line enters the fuel pump?  That being the case, perhaps snaking out or purging that fuel line and the return line(personally I'd replace them if crimped, plugged, dirty or rusted in any manner shape or form, but I don't have an original car)might help.  You also might have an issue (I think I have this problem) where air is somehow getting into the fuel stream; thus you are not getting complete fuel pressure. Of course you need to check the fuel screen in the tank as, and I'm sure you've changed the fuel filter as well.  So far, two mechanics (including our beloved Dr. Benz, Dan Caron) have spent some time on my issue, found some culprits, but didn't cure it.  In the spring we try again.

Hans Utke of H&R Fuel Injection in New York has also informed me that fuel pumps can look like they are putting out, when in fact they are not; its the old "static" versus "dynamic" thing.  When under pressure, it doesn't work, but on a bench it looks like Niagara Falls.  Sadly the fuel pump is one very dear part, costing somewhere between $300 and $500 depending on source.

One of the reasons why my car is so un-original is that unless you do all your own work, sometimes diagnosing the problem (paying a mechanic) to find the problem is more costly then the cure (replacing the part).  So an awful lot of 35 year old parts were changed.  The only things not changed on my car related to this is the fuel pump and the fuel tank...

If you go back to some earlier posts there are photos and descriptions of the fuel system (from Joe Alexander) including the tank internals and venting.  This should give you enough information to take your diagnosis to the next level.

Good luck and let us know what you find.  These intermittant gremlins are the worse kind of problems to have and thus their solutions oh so important to our collective knowledge base.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

n/a

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2005, 10:14:07 »
Many thanks for your suggestions Michael.

And "Peace Brother"! No, I have great pressure where the fuel enters the FI pump. Just seemingly nothing after the FI pump! And yes, a brand new fuel filter...

Cheers,

Neil.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 10:53:19 by n/a »

A Dalton

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2005, 11:40:52 »
Have you checked the pump oil level on the dip-stick??

n/a

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2005, 16:29:38 »
quote:
Originally posted by A Dalton

Have you checked the pump oil level on the dip-stick??

Yep, sure have. In fact changing the pump oil was an early maintenance job I did too. While on that subject, is the level taken with the dip stick screwed in to its thread or simply placed on top of its thread (if that makes sense)? I assumed the former, and filled it to the latter when trying to get the damn thing to start.

Cheers.

A Dalton

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2005, 16:32:10 »
<<is the level taken with the dip stick screwed in to its thread >>

Yes

n/a

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2005, 17:11:23 »
quote:
Originally posted by mdsalemi

...You also might have an issue (I think I have this problem) where air is somehow getting into the fuel stream; thus you are not getting complete fuel pressure...


Michael - I think you're on to something. When disconnecting the fuel return line and putting on a clear PVC tube into a container, switching on the ignition -hence the fuel pump - shows plenty of flow, but HEAPS of air. No wonder the FI pump can't do anything with it!

Dud petrol pump?

Neil.

ja17

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2005, 17:28:34 »
Hello aussie,
Assuming you have correct fuel pressure and volume going to the injection pump, you may have stuck rack on the injection pump. Remove the 10mm cap on the front end of the injection pump and make sure the rack moves freely in it's bore.

You can screw in a 4mm machine screw into the threaded end of the rack and check to see if it moves freely. It should also move slightly if the linkage going to injection pump is moved. The later injection pumps do not have a threaded hole in the end of the rack but all 230SL's should.


Download Attachment: 4mm screw on rack.jpg
60.62 KB

More details;

Download Attachment: injection pump drive end information.JPG
60.97 KB


Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio


« Last Edit: January 12, 2005, 17:43:38 by ja17 »
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

A Dalton

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2005, 18:56:58 »
I believe the test screw should be a 5mm X 0.8 pitch.
 I use ones about 1-1/2" long. [ about 40mm]
 I have trid a few 4mm, but they were always too small.. possibly the early R11 pumps were 4mm ???

ja17

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2005, 21:16:49 »
Hello ADalton,
You are probably correct on the 5mm, my memory failed me on this detail!
Joe

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

n/a

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2005, 21:46:38 »
Do we have a goose of the month award?

If so, may I please nominate myself.

Sipping a coffee I just had a "surely not" moment when trying to work out how air could possibly get into the fuel system. After much reading and thought I came to the conclusion that the only way would be if the fuel pump was somehow sucking air through as failed seal or delivery hose (but there was no smell of petrol), or....or...the tank had no fuel.

The fuel gauge indicated that I had quite a bit of fuel left, but what if the GAUGE was the problem? It had always read accurately before, and even the little 'reserve' light worked a treat. I tipped in some extra fuel from a container, and it started straight up.

Now to investigate the sender unit on the tank...

...and order some goose food for dinner.

Benz Dr.

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2005, 22:54:48 »
Blow some compressed air into the return line going back to the fuel tank. A blockage there would cause lots of vapour lock and what apppears to be bubbles up stream. Remove the gas cap first and put a rag around the pipe so fuel won't spray back at you.If it's clear you should hear air coming up through the tank.

 How full the tank is has a lot to do with the kind of delivery problems you might encounter. A plugged flower pot would do this too. Pull the hose off from the tank going to the fuel pump and you should have a steady full head of fuel. If it slows down the screen or flower pot is plugged depending on how full the tank is. Best test results are at about 1/4 full.

Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

ja17

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2005, 23:00:10 »
Yes,
Here we have the classic example of lack of volume! Remember fuel pressure and volume check before replacing a lot of expensive parts which may be good!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

mdsalemi

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2005, 08:43:38 »
quote:
I tipped in some extra fuel from a container, and it started straight up.

Now to investigate the sender unit on the tank...



Ahh, if only my problem were so easy to solve...

Luckily however, I've located a German master mechanic around here, Karl-Heinz, who runs an independent repair shop.  He worked for the local MB dealer here for YEARS before venturing out on his own...and spent many years working on 113's when they regularly showed up for service at dealers.  I already spoke with him on my issue and he's got some ideas that haven't been tried before.  Even better news is he owns one himself! :D   Can't wait for spring!!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

n/a

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2005, 18:22:13 »
OK, final diagnosis (not quite the goose I thought yesterday, but a steep learning curve and thanks to all for a GREAT resource - plenty of posts on flower pots and blocked return lines etc) is a blocked return fuel line. I was able to simply clear the blockage by using lungpower on a PVC hose temporarily connected to the return line in the engine bay.

I was not getting vapor lock, but rather when the tank got down to a little less than a quarter full, the flower pot wasn't getting replenished by the return line, so the petrol pump was starting to suck in air bubbles, which the FI pump couldn't handle (it's there to allocate fuel to the inlet ports, not air!), and the car stopped.

Filling the tank with petrol would have got me going again, but I realised when filling the tank eventually that it took only about 50 - 55 litres, and it's a 65-litre tank. So the gauge WAS working, the tank DID have fuel, the ignition WAS providing spark, and the fuel system WAS pressurised with fuel (when cracking the bleed plug on top of the fuel filter fuel was escaping under pressure). No wonder I thought the worst!

Now that I am intimate with flower pots (who would ever have guessed their tank had such a feature?!) and return lines and the interaction between the two it all makes sense.

Thanks to all again for a great resource! I hope my experience can help others who find themselves with this perplexing set of symptoms.


glennard

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2005, 19:51:34 »
Quick message. Vague details of a long ago problem- a couple of quarts of fuel tank rust, helix gas return path in plastic tank shroud, clogged tank filter, no flow out of dangling tank hose, fuel sender unit, etc.  Took a lot of cleaning up. Not many drawings of the whole system available.  Fuel tank rust wasn't fun!

hands_aus

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2005, 05:40:59 »
Hey Neil,

Have you seen this topic which Joe Alexander started
http://index.php?topic=1712

The hole in the flower pot must have been blocked for a reason.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL #114, auto, ps , 717,717
best of the best

glennard

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2005, 22:08:39 »
quote:
Originally posted by hands_aus

Hey Neil,

Have you seen this topic which Joe Alexander started
http://index.php?topic=1712

The hole in the flower pot must have been blocked for a reason.

Bob Smith (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto



Looked at the JA archive on fuel tank innards-pretty accurate.  Imagine not having this info- and two inches of rust particles inside and outside the plastic shroud(flower pot)!  That poor little electric fuel pump- don't get no suction!  There are at least three filters in the gas stream.  The one in the tank, second one in the electric pump suction nub, and a third in the cartridge at the mechanical injection pump- each progressively finer.  Protect those helix plungers, eh?

glennard

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2005, 22:33:08 »
quote:
Originally posted by aussie230sl

Many thanks for your suggestions Michael.

And "Peace Brother"! No, I have great pressure where the fuel enters the FI pump. Just seemingly nothing after the FI pump! And yes, a brand new fuel filter...

Cheers,

Neil.



Don't think it is the return line.  Electric pump takes suction thru the in-tank filter. That filter sits inside the flower pot shroud.  The shroud is filled by returning excess fuel in/from the injection pump AND makeup fuel from the surrounding larger volume fuel tank via a weep hole on the bottom edge of the shroud. (Fuel tank level is maintained by Exxon/Shell/? at $2.+ per gal.)  An inch or so of rust on the bottom of the tank/shroud -and - bingo Not adequate suction flow.  Take the tank out, draining safely, purge, turn upside down, purge, clean, did I say purge, vacuum.   Should be good for the rest of the time you own the car.   Look for a solid 17/18 psi up at the injection pump.  The outlet damper should maintain this.

Benz Dr.

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2005, 00:17:06 »
Note:
 The name '' Flower Pot '' is used by permission of the Benz Dr. Any use outside of this forum is verboten.

Daniel G Caron
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

mdsalemi

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2005, 07:38:16 »
Let me just add that that the Good Doctor DID INDEED do these things to my car with the similar problem, but it didn't solve the problem.

The fuel filter was changed; the fuel supply line was blown out; the return line blown out; the vent lines blown out and the screen cleaned.  He even looked inside and was quite surprised to find--not a whole heck of a lot.  Pretty clean inside the tank.  So similar symptoms (sucking air and thus missing when below a certain fuel level)probably have more then one cause.  Tim Kidder of K&K suggests that there could be perforations on the fuel pickup line in the tank.  I have not seen the insides but when the problem is solved (make no mistake it will be :twisted: )in the spring I will certainly report back.  If we need to change the fuel tank I'll have the old one cut open and detailed photos taken.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
Michael Salemi
Davidson, North Carolina (Charlotte Area) USA
1969 280SL (USA-Spec)
Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
2023 Ford Maverick Lariat Hybrid "Area 51"
2023 Ford Escape Hybrid
2024 Ford Mustang Mach Ex PEV

George Des

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2005, 09:11:29 »
Don't count on that fuel filter always being there on the electric fuel pump inlet-especially with the older large style pumps. I've opened up over twenty five of these and have found the inlet filter only on about half of them. Same goes for the capacitor that goes across the brushes--this is to hold down arching and possible radio interference. Not sure if these were intentional by design or whether some where in their life they were removed. Point is, they may not be there on yours if everything else chks out okay and you're still having problems either in fuel filtering or radio interference. Have found the filter on all the smaller style pumps I've worked on, but no capacitors. It looks like the newer pump uses a different arrangement with a wound spring contact on the brushes to achieve the same purpose as the capacitor for radio interefernce suppression

George Des

glennard

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2005, 17:27:36 »
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.

Note:
 The name '' Flower Pot '' is used by permission of the Benz Dr. Any use outside of this forum is verboten.

Daniel G Caron



Here at the Mass, USA MB religious Hdq., the item is known as the 'Shroud of Fuelin'.

n/a

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2005, 00:17:21 »
OK, it's taken me a while to get through that tank of fuel, but, when it got down to approx 1/4, it stopped again. So the return line was not the problem...

I was determined to fix it today, and did. First test was to see just what the pump was pumping - some petrol, but also a lot of air, just as before.

I then took off the petrol tank float mechanism (the old variety, as you can see on www.realnoteguitars.com.au/merc) and peered inside, expecting to see a horrible mess. However, the tank was pristine inside, with no corrosion at all! Even the "flower pot" and the fuel lines were perfectly clean and looked like brand new.

OK, I thought, it has to be the fuel line from the tank to the petrol pump, which might have developed cracks and once the 'gravity feed' of the pump ended at approx 1/4 tank and there would be a negative pressure (suction) on that hose it might be sucking in air at that point.

So I confidently removed the flexible line, put my finger in one end, sucked on the other and blocked it with my tongue, and...it held the vacuum perfectly. So it wasn't the fuel line.

OK, time to drain the tank and delve deeper. I made up a special tool to remove the drain plug by grinding down an old 18mm 1/2" drive socket on my bench grinder.

see pic of tool here


While I was making the tool (nowhere near the draining tank, I might add!) I noted that the fuel was barely trickling out, which gave a clue as to the problem.

Sure enough, on removing the drain plug and filter the problem was obvious - an almost blocked filter. Not with particles of rust or anything visible at all, but on holding the filter up to the light I could see nothing at all through it. It was only when washing the filter out in the last of the drained petrol using a fine brush that I noticed that the filter was grey, not black - a very fine substance had deposited itself over the filter and almost totally blocked it.

I can only put it down to deposits and gum from years of poorer fuels, as I swear by only using the locally available 98 octane unleaded fuel for both the SL and my '83 230TE wagon. These fuels have enhanced cleaning properties (BP Ultimate, Mobil 8000 and Shell Optimax) and my bet is that my introducing this fuel to the car after 40 years of poorer fuels did much the same as introducing a high-detergent oil to a high-mileage, high sludge engine - the deposits throughout the fuel system were gradually removed, and they ended up in the filter.

My theory is that while the tank was above 1/4 full there was enough 'head' to get the fuel through the filter, albeit at a reduced flow rate. I am sure the air being introduced was doing so at the clamped end of the flexible hose between the tank and the petrol pump, one end of which was quite loose when I removed it. Not loose enough to cause a leakage of fuel, but just enough to allow an ingress of air when the suction effort of the petrol pump became too great (combination of blocked tank filter and low petrol level).

The truth of the matter was shown when I put only a few litres back into the tank after re-fitting the cleaned filter and the fuel line. I left the float mechanism off so I could watch what was happening, and started the car. It started perfectly, and ran perfectly. Shining the torch into the tank showed the "flower pot" doing its job perfectly, with a healthy level being maintained in it by the fuel entering from the return line - quite a clever design when you see it working in real life.

To finish the job it was just a matter of fitting the float mechanism and driving stright to my local petrol station for a new tankful of 98 octane!

The problem has finally been solved!

Neil Rote, Melbourne Australia
Unrestored '64

rwmastel

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Re: dead 230SL fuel injection pump?
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2005, 08:36:32 »
quote:
Originally posted by aussie230sl

It was only when washing the filter out in the last of the drained petrol using a fine brush that I noticed that the filter was grey, not black - a very fine substance had deposited itself over the filter and almost totally blocked it.
Neil,
Nice job!  I hope it's fixed for good.  About the color, I believe new in-tank filters have a white (or off-white) color to the plastic.  They are not expensive if you want to get a brand new one.

Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both  tops
1994 E420
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