very strange chassis number on a 230SL 1965

[ricpang]

Hello,
I am a new member, I live in Italy, Florence.  Just three days ago I have bought a 230 SL 1965 year. I bought it in Holland , I like it very much, it is a very good car, I have driven it from Holland to Italy (1400km) , no problems at all.  Well , now I have a terrible doubt. The chassis number appears not so clear, as if it had been reissued, and, what is worse, the first six digits  are 143 049, instead of the usual 113 042. On the documents the chassis  number is the same that is stamped on the chassis (143049 and the other eight digits.) I bought the car from a wealthy people that kept it since 1996 and mainteined it very well. It is not the kind of person that steal a car and change the chassis number. On your opinion what is happened?  Maybe the car had an accident and a piece of chassis has been changed and the number has been reissued? (stamped again) . Could you please help me to understand? Thanks in advance
Riccardo
PS: I apologize if I have mistaked the section in the forum, I am learning now.

[DaveB]

Hello ricpang,
Are you talking about the number stamped on the firewall plate or on the front RH frame rail? They should match. Ex-factory, the frame rail chassis number is unpainted as shown in the links below. Is yours painted or not? Are there any signs of repair/replacement? And are you absolutely sure the number is 143049??
In any case, I don't think you should be too concerned about fraud, because a fraudster would probably make a more believable number.

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/VIN
http://www.silverstarrestorations.com/113SL.htm

[ricpang]

Hello DaveB,
thank you for your answer. I was talking about the number on the front RH frame rail but also about the number stamped on the firewall plate. They match. The frame rail chassis number is unpainted and there are signs of replacement. Yes I am sure that the number is 143 049.  I think you are right , I have thought the same thing about fraudster. But I am asking myself the reason why.
Accident? or what else? And which number I should say when I will look for spares? Thanks DaveB.
Riccardo

[Pawel66]

Riccardo,
I think Dave's argument on that kind of fraud would be rather silly - there is no (to the best of my knowledge) 143 Mercedes car designation. Did you ask the previous owners about it? Do you have original car documents such as datacard or other document related to car delivery?

To me it looks like a mistake when the car was worked on. This mistake has then been legalized. I would check if the number 113 042 xxxxx can be used for parts. It would be great if you had a datacard for your car to chekc if the colours and options match.

What numbers do you have on the colour plate? Maybe send a pic.

[Tyler S]

A mercedes "143" chassis was produced in the 1930's. Interestingly enough it was called a 230.

You may want to start looking for body numbers in the hood, trans plate, soft top compartment lid. Compare those to the body plate (not the vin plate) on the left side inner fender well and see if the Classic Center has a way of looking up a vin by cross referencing a body number on a 230sl

[cabrioletturbo]

I tried cross-referencing build number to chassis number with the Irvine classic centre on a W111 and learned it was not possible. That said, I seriously doubt that any number punched on the body - unless it was the original chassis number - would help resolve this. If this was my car, I would go back to the previous owners to find out if there was any documents available when this change took place.

In North America there is a common practice where VIN gets 'assigned' by the state/province in lieu of the original, so that may be the case here. It would really be important to trace back this car as far as possible, to be able to get some sort of closure. I have seen several pagodas on eBay selling with VINs not corresponding to their actual chassis - being 110, 109, 108 or others.

As you described, you got a wonderful car to drive. That is important.
The correct numbers (chassis) are equally important. The issue you have with the numbers may impact resale value of your car once you decide to pass it along.

[stickandrudderman]

In South Africa a stolen recovered car will have a new and completely different format VIN assigned and stamped into it.

[cfm65@me.com]

Stick is correct. I once bought a ‘stolen recovery’ Golf from an insurance company and the cops stamped a new number on the drivers side( RH in SA) door sill.
The Model A Ford did not have a chassis nr and only the engine nr was used way back when, so when I registered my 1928 Pickup, a new number was punched in the RHD door sill by the cops.
Regards
Chris

[450sl]

When this car was registered in the netherlands since 1996 then there should have been a registrationpaper that stated a chassisnumber.

If as stick mentioned the chassisnumber was officially altered then this would clarify.

As long as both numbers match you should be ok.

[ricpang]

Hello, thanks to everybody and excuse me for my delay. I have been very busy just for this matter of the chassis number. I wrote to Mercedes-Benz, I wrote to RDW,(it is a public car register in Holland, where I have bought the 230SL) , running here and there to try to resolve the problem and now I'm anxiously waiting their answer.   I already asked  the old owner but he said that when he bought the car was like it is now, he does'nt change the chassis number and he does'nt know anything about it. He says , and in some way he is right, that the documents are OK . The problem is up to me, because, to register the car in Italy, I need a technical data paper from the Mercedes and I don't know what they will do with that chassis number. Yes, Cabrioletturbo, it is a great driving indeed .  And thanks Tyler S. , I surely will look for any number everywhere and it is a good suggestion, Pawel 66, to have a look also at the number of the colour plate. Surely I'll do all these things. Thanks to everybody , I'll let you know how the thing proceeds.

[ejboyd5]

Several pictures of the various stamped numbers would be of assistance to those who wish to help.

[TheEngineer]

If you write down your engine number and your transmission number and send them to MB Classic they can tell you which car they came from.

[ricpang]

Oh , this is really good! thank you so much, TheEngineer!

[TheEngineer]

Far niente

[George Des]

I tried this to find out the orgins of a 5 Speed ZF that was installed in my 67 230Sl sometime between 1967 and 1976. The Classic Center said they did not have that kind of info. It apparently came from another SL of that period since this configuration of the S5-20 was only installed in 230SLs at that time. You think this would be a simple matter to figure out but apparently not. The bottom support plate for my ZF on mine is stamped with -043 which may be a partial of the original VIN this was installed in since it is not the same as the remaining body stamps on my car.

[ricpang]

Hello to everybody,
today I checked numbers. First the colour plate. I don't post a picture because it is impossible to read the number on the picture. Only with a certain inclination and with very small distance between eyes and plate it is possible to read:
180 G  (the car is grey)
and this, that is very important to me: 113 042 10 plus a group of six digits and another group of five digits.
My question is: would this number on the colour plate be the same of the original chassis number (excluding the last five digits) ?
I didn't find any number on the hardtop neither on the softop frame nor in the compartment where the softop folds down. Do you know  special points in which look for? I have been looking for very carefully for a long time.
The engine seems to be from a 230SL  as the number says 127981 but follows 12 that, if I don't mistake, means  from an automatic car. Isn't it?(my 230SL is manual)   And the transmission number I found on the bell is :005104.  I say it for  TheEngineer and I ask him: if the engine is not original  can be useful to give to Classic Center engine and transmission numbers to obtain chassis number? Anyway could you please give me the address of Classic Center? The one I found seems not to deal with classic cars. Is it the one in Irvine? Thanks to everybody.
 

[Pawel66]

You have the explanation of the numbers from colour plate in the Technical Manual under Data Cards and codes section.

If the colour plate is from your car, your car had a regular 113042 10 VIN number - these digits are the same. The other digits beneath on the plate are productioin number and body number, different from vin. The colour of the car, 180G was silver grey metallic. The last three digits in the bottom line should be stamped on hood, etc.

The top line of digits (coming in 3 digits pieces) are the options for the car when it was order - you may try to see if this colour plate corresponds to what you have in the car.

Indeed the engine number indicates automatic (1 - LHD, 2-automatic). A lot of cars have engines that are type-correct, but are replaced.

[ricpang]

Thanks Pawel66.

[TheEngineer]

Tom Hanson
Supervisor, Parts Sales
Mercedes-Benz Classic Center
Mercedes-Benz USA
9 Whatney, Irvine, CA 92618
Email:     thomas.hanson@mbusa.com
Phone:   949-598-4842
Fax:         949-598-4860

[Iconic]

ricpang,
Have you read through this? https://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/BodyandPaintNumberPlate
Additionally, other parts of the manual will help you out too.
Good luck,
Mark

[mbzse]

..../...Mercedes-Benz USA, Irvine, CA

Well but - the M-B Classic Center and Archive is in Stuttgart, Germany.  Lot closer (to Firenze)... 

[TheEngineer]

Tom Hanson will talk to me and gives me excellent prices. I'm not so sure about Stuttgart. I'm a very old guy and remember "sal boche"






h

[ricpang]

Thanks TheEngineer and also to you, Iconic. Sorry if I insist with the same questions, maybe I've made too many, and I have not yet been answered on where could be the number on the hardtop and  on the frame of the softop and, if it would be the same as the chassis number. For my case it is essential to find the original chassis number to be able to register the SL in Italy. Otherwise I will never be able to use it. (really terrible perspective!) I have looked for in any place, also inside the hub covers. Nothing. But if you are gonna tell me that the number I could find on the hardtop or in the softop frame or I don't know wherelse, it is different from the original chassis number , then I can stop to look for it. Thanks to everybody. Without you I would be very desperate.

[Jonny B]

Take a look at this site, Motoring Investments it shows the location of the various body numbers.
https://motoringinvestments.com/historic/MainPage.htm

I don't believe the body number is on the soft top, it is on the cover to the soft top compartment. and the transmission cover under the car.

[ricpang]

Yes, thank you Jonny B, the site you suggested helped a lot.