Author Topic: Exhaust noise  (Read 5559 times)

hdhardyb

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Exhaust noise
« on: May 27, 2018, 22:38:21 »
Last year I had the complete exhaust replaced with regular (not stainless) components. Used all Mercedes parts except the front pipe (113-490-09-20), which is no longer available from Mercedes and so we got it from Niemoeller. The new system made an unusual hissing sound and had a very bad vibration above 3000 RPM, very annoying on the highway.
After much detective work including a stethoscope, it turned out the noise came from within the new exhaust, specifically from the front pipe in the section where the two pipes are connected. More detective work showed that the old original exhaust had 11 spot welds in the crossmember between the pipes, which the new aftermarket part did not have. Adding those weld spots in the new exhaust completely solved the noise problem.
Hope this info will be useful to others who may encounter similar problems. I believe many of the available aftermarket front pipes are similar, so this problem may not be specific to the Niemoeller part.

DaveB

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 01:16:06 »
Noted! That is interesting. Good detective work. It's disappointing that the aftermarket manufacturers are cutting corners and not thoroughly testing their products.
DaveB
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Tyler S

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 01:57:20 »
WOW!!!! What are the odds that I just replaced my exhaust a few weeks ago and have the exact same issue with the same pipes! Mine is even more pronounced when shifting and decell around 3000 rpm. Did you drill holes through the bottom half plate and then plug weld the 2 together? This forum and its members are awesome.
Thanks a lot Hdhardyb!

On a sidenote. Dispite the exhaust noise, my car has never run better. These front pipe crossover boxes are more important than you think. The increased powerband at higher rpm is very noticeable.  The original crossover on my car was rotten away long ago and was replaced with straight pipes by a muffler shop when my father owned the car.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 02:14:11 by Tyler S. »
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

mbzse

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2018, 08:19:16 »
Quote from: Tyler S.
.../...my car has never run better. These front pipe crossover boxes are more important than you think.
IMHO this is one of those design features on our cars that is important but not obvious. There was a discussion some years back and the description of the cross-over by Gary in CA is interesting.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=20707.msg150036#msg150036
/Hans S

hdhardyb

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2018, 03:29:37 »
Did you drill holes through the bottom half plate and then plug weld the 2 together? This forum and its members are awesome.

That's exactly how it was done. I am still amazed to learn how seemingly insignificant details such as these weld spots make a significant difference in our cars.
It is also very interesting to hear that this crossover gives you noticeably more power at higher RPM.

hdhardyb

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2018, 13:29:40 »
IMHO this is one of those design features on our cars that is important but not obvious. There was a discussion some years back and the description of the cross-over by Gary in CA is interesting.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=20707.msg150036#msg150036
And by the way, the standard counter argument that the two pipes come together anyhow in the muffler makes no physical sense. The Bernoulli principle, by which a vacuum is created in one pipe (through the "channels" in the crossover) when there is a pulse of flow in the other pipe, does not apply in the more turbulent flow in the muffler.
 

Tyler S

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2018, 13:47:59 »
Thanks Thomas, yes the power increase is noticable. I have a feeling I am now running a bit lean as well. I had adjusted my IP with the old exhaust and now with the change I get a little surge at light cruise. Will have to hook up my wideband O2 sensor tool after the spot welds are added and see where its at.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

mbzse

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2018, 15:04:10 »
Quote from: hdhardyb
And by the way, the standard counter argument that the two pipes come together anyhow in the muffler makes no physical sense.../...
As mentioned several times in this Forum and elsewhere, the Factory put very few or no things onto our cars (their design) that did not serve a purpose! Therefore, to second guess the Daimler-Benz design department is indeed not so fruitful...
« Last Edit: May 30, 2018, 05:42:22 by mbzse »
/Hans S

Atazman

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 16:26:00 »
Please excuse my lack of understanding here.  I'm not understanding what the "welds" are for.

In the pictures below I see what appears to be "gas ports" where the exhaust gases can mix from one pipe to the other.  I understand the purpose of these "gas ports". 

Then.... I see the picture with "spot welds" in between the "gas ports".  What purpose do the 'spot welds" have??

Thanks in advance for the explanation on what is happening.
Don
67 250 Sl
(#3168) from Italy
5-speed/Posi/AC/Kinder

Tyler S

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2018, 18:10:21 »
The welds keep the center portion of the two halves of the box attached to each other. These areas are most likely vibrating into each other and also letting exhaust pass at an angle that is not at 90 degrees as designed. Causing a hiss. Under load, this gap is most likely opening up further because of exhaust pressures, making everything worse.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Tyler S

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2018, 15:39:14 »
Update: So after a bunch of googling, fiddling, adding spot welds, the noise is still there. It appears the replacement crossover box is missing all of the internals that the MB pipe had. The outer appearance is almost identical. However the internals are missing. The pipes should go all the way through the "shell" and are connected with small venturi tubes. The outer shell is just that. A shield for support and a backup incase of an internal leak. The noise in the aftermarket crossover box is caused by the front pipes opening up into this box area. Because the internal volume is greater than the pipes, the exhaust is allowed to expand. the exhaust pulses are again squeezed in order to exit the box. This is creating an exhaust pulse collision/restriction and hence the hissing noise. These front pipes are the MB/Eberspächer style weld in replacements sold at SLS, Niemoller, etc. I do not know the brand name. I suspect the OP had success with adding spot welds because a small amount of volume was taken up with these welds. This was just enough to keep back pressure up and stent the noise. His engine is a 280. My engine is a 250 so there is less exhaust volume. Adding welds on 2 different sets of these pipes changed the pitch of the noise but did not fix the problem. Once again we have an aftermarket company attempting to reproduce a part and cutting corners witout testing. I would advise staying away from this part. Because MB no longer supplies this part, I will be making my own "H" or "X" pipe with the 42mm pipe size maintained throughout. I also have a set of pipes made by IMASAF that are a clamp on replacement style (at rear of crossover). The crossover portion is much smaller, however it too is lacking the exhaust pipe size, consistency, and internals.  This set also has fitment issues at the manifolds. Will post details after a successful outcome of either.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2018, 13:56:10 by Tyler S. »
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Pawel66

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2018, 16:16:46 »
MB dealer told me these pipes will soon be available again from MB. Question is if they are going to be the same. I will keep asking.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
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Tyler S

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2018, 16:38:46 »
I got/get the same answer from the classic center. "Check back soon". Its been over a year. Yes hopefully they are remade to specs
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

Pawel66

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2018, 21:38:29 »
Will push my guys and report back.

I ordered a voltage regulator for my 190SL. I was waiting 15 months, but I got it! The only difference vs. original is that the housing Bosch made silver, the rest looks same. Even the mounting bracket fits my chassis.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 21:47:07 by Pawel66 »
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

hdhardyb

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2018, 20:44:01 »
Update: So after a bunch of googling, fiddling, adding spot welds, the noise is still there.

Sorry to hear that. I have driven my car for a couple 1000 miles now and the noise is completely gone. For me the hiss wasn't so much of a problem but the metallic vibration sound at 3000 RPM and higher was really bad.
In any case, before Jim Cosgrove (at Oldtimer restorations) did the welding of the crossover part for me, I had found AI Motors in Germany that had re-made those front pipes by another big German exhaust company. They claim that they had made it more to original specs than the SLS and Niemoeller parts. I ordered one, photo is attached. It looks solid and it does have the spot welds. However, Jim measured the wall thickness of the pipes and it is only 1.5 mm. The Niemoeller pipe is 2 mm and I believe the original pipes were 3 mm. I still think it may be worth trying that part. Ordering from Germany worked fine for me, or you may be able to get it from Jim - since I didn't need it, I sold mine to him.



 








Benz Dr.

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2018, 21:11:29 »
Will push my guys and report back.

I ordered a voltage regulator for my 190SL. I was waiting 15 months, but I got it! The only difference vs. original is that the housing Bosch made silver, the rest looks same. Even the mounting bracket fits my chassis.

I used one from a John Deere tractor and it worked perfectly. John Deere made tractors in Germany at the time so it kind of makes sense.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
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Tyler S

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2018, 16:46:26 »
Thomas,
Your photo is interesting in the fact that the left and right crossover halves are offset. Looking at old undercarrage photos, it appears this is the same on original MB pipes. The aftermarket pipes I am having trouble with do not have this offset. This may be a contributing factor to the noise I have.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)

hdhardyb

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2018, 02:57:56 »
Your photo is interesting in the fact that the left and right crossover halves are offset.

I noticed that too but I just can't think of any reason why this offset would make a real difference. But it probably does, because they would't have designed it that way just to break the symmetry.

Tyler S

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Re: Exhaust noise
« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2018, 13:42:58 »
i think It has somthing to do with the length of the headers. The front exhaust manifold is further away from the crossover so the exhaust pulses "arrive" later. You wouldnt want an exhaust pulse from say cylinders 3 and 6 (firing order 153624) to arrive at the same time. Because of the length difference, the trailing cylinder 6, but from the shorter path manifold could collide with cylinder 3 in the crossover. Slightly offsetting the chamber corrected this. This could be my whole issue. Just a theory.
1968 (67) 250sl. 4 speed manual. DB180 Silver
1955 220 Cabriolet A. White Grey
2019 E450 Wagon. Majestic Blue
1936 Ford PU Flathead V8. Creme on tan interior.
1989 Volkswagen T3 Westfailia Campmobile. Dove Grey (blue)