Author Topic: 230 SL Pagoda  (Read 10586 times)

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
230 SL Pagoda
« on: August 22, 2018, 09:52:28 »
Dear All.

I have a 2 Owner 1966 SL Pagoda 230 SL.  It has has paint at some stage and is in very good condition. The Interior Seats show signs of age as is expected and i,m told the Carpets are not as per factory spec. I just wanted to ask is kit worth changing the Carpets and Interior to make it exquisite. I know this is a personal thing but I would like the car to be correct as she was made. Does anyone know a Trimmer in the UK, who is fair and reasonable on prices. The Soft Top does show signs of wear and the Trunk floor covering is missing along with the Wheel covering.

I would welcome any advice please
Regards
Paulo V

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5494
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2018, 11:03:39 »
Paulo,

It looks like you have a very nice car there - certainly based only on the pictures you presented. There is this decision moment: do I keep what is there with all the traces of history or do I restore the car to "new" condition as per the factory specs (or to the colours I like - some prefer that).

I think an important input to this decision may be if someone looks at the whole car and provides you advise of what is and what is already not an original and gives you a full scope of "work to be done" if you wanted the car to be original or restored as original. I think this is an important parameter.

For instance:
- carpets indeed may not be as per factory and are (in my view only) spoiled a bit by the speakers. Yes, there are companies in Europe who make very good, original-like carpets. So you may have new carpets.
- then you will see how your seats look like when the new carpets are there and you would decide if you like it or not (this is what happens when you put part of the interior new - the other parts just may look worse).
- seats - they look ok, but someone would need to verify if these are correct seats for your car (I am not saying they are not!), i.e. 230SL 1966. I may be totally wrong, but they seem to me after /8 seats - but again, that can be wrong.
- there are some small things I see that would need to be looked at and decided - some work in trunk side panels, I do not know how your spare wheel is to be attached - left side upright or right side level, if right side level - something may be missing there

Again: depending if you want your car with patine, but original, restored to specs original-like or just very good looking or just decent looking driver - all of these options will require different investments and efforts. And we are talking just interior here, while there may be work to be done on chassis or drive train.

If I were you, I would have shown the car to someone with knowledge about these cars and discuss the above options. I have nobody like that where I am, but you have experts there in the UK (e.g. Collin Ferns).

As for the carpet suppliers the UK Fellow Members will come with advise, I am sure. For Europe - e.g. KHM, Eurotop. For trunk mat - the original was, on the left and center, a grey ribbed rubber mat, PN A1136840104 (as of chassis number 042 007205) and under the spare wheel, on the right a rubber pad PN A1136840404, replaced by A1136840604. They are NLA in Mercedes, so either you need to find the originals on e-bay or look at shops such as e.g. SLS for reproductions.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2018, 11:16:35 »
Thank you for your reply. The car is a 2 Owner car and that is what attracted me to her. I have had the Data Card read from the Mercedes Classic Centre and the Colour is Original, the Interior says its Caviar and Black Carpets. The Mercedes chaps seemed the think the seats are not Caviar (But I always thought Caviar was black).  The Second owner was an Engineer and did a lot of the work himself. Its been painted at some time and the Fenders replaced as I noticed the Spot Welds missing and the owner agreed they were changed in 1998. Yes the Speakers are a shame and I cant believe someone would install them. This definitely has to go. Can this be bought or made. The Trunk does have a recess for the wheel on the left. The two piece Vinyl is missing and I understand some owners put a carpet in the trunk to match the interior. I want to keep the car as original as possible. The exterior mirrors for example as missing but that's because they were never ordered as also shown on the data card.  I have a 280 SL that's been totally restored but its just parked up, never gets used in case it gets marked or devalues, sometimes I do wonder why?. I want this to be factory correct in every way, as near to concourse as possible but also driveable.

Paulo

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5494
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2018, 11:41:29 »
Well, the speakers must have been giving a good bass "boom" when placed there - just different owner's priority :).

Then I think carpets definitely have to be replaced, seats checked and then you will be deciding if you want it concourse ready with original "patina" or new looking... For that I would indeed look for an expert advice unless I had enough knowledge myself, which I do not.

I just remember ny friend's 220SE - he had good leather but worn carpets. Together it looked ok, but he replaced carpets with new ones. Then we looked at it and the leather did not look so nice any more... he replaced it too.

I was not studying topic of the trunk mat and a spare wheel cover with spare wheel on the left. I see in EPC that for early cars you should stated the colour of the upholstery when ordering the trunk mat. You may want to search the forum. Or fellow Members will chime in.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2018, 11:57:35 »
Hello again.

You are quite knowledgeable, but modest. May I ask what you mean by Concourse ready with original Patina?  Or is new Leather trim classed as Concourse. Do the seats not look original in their shape or coverings?



Paulo

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5494
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2018, 12:28:08 »
Paulo,

You are very kind, thank you, but my knowledge is small compared to someof the gurus here. You have concourse judges here on the forum and criteria as well.

Some of us prefer cars that are fully original with traces of age and of being used for years - this is what I call "patina". So concourse ready with patina - I mean original car with all of its original parts - visbly old and not perfect just because of age.
Some of us either do not have this opportunity as their cars deteriorated beyond acceptable level or just prefer cars to look like new (I am in this camp).

I am not sure how both work in terms of concourse points nor in terms of value - I think it depends on potential customer. Probably original patina is better.

Seats - I wrote it seemed to me these seats may be after /8 seats (later, after 1968 version). But this is just my first sight opinion - do not trust it. Seats in Pgodas are science in its own and I am not an expert. Your seats are probably correct.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

swood1

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • United Kingdom, England, Worcester
  • Posts: 247
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2018, 12:45:24 »
Hi Paulo,

I would like to see some pics of your fully restored 280SL.... It's a shame your not getting to use it :(


Steve





250 SL (early), in bits. Triumph TR4a

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2018, 12:50:02 »
Hi Steve

Nice to hear from you. What do you do though, for fear of Damaging it or devaluing it, this is what happens. Sometimes I think is it worth having so much money tied up in it, but the Donor car being in need of a complete restoration, Europe was the cheapest place.

P

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2018, 12:54:13 »
Hi again Guru!

I will check with the owner, but as they owned it since 1973 I see no reason they would have changed them.  If any other people are reading this i,m happy to have it original with age but to Concourse or slightly below level if they think this would be good.

Paulo

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5494
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2018, 13:38:35 »
I am sure the seats are ok, I probably raised it unnecessarily.

On the 280Sl standing idle - I have one restored as new. I drive it under very strict rules, one of them being solid surface roads and no rain. I think you need to drive it, at least occasionally. Cars break down when they are not driven...
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2018, 13:47:05 »

Hi P

When did you restore it and who did it for you. Our family has a High end car dealership in the UK and the Car is on a turnstile there. Will get a few pictures when I get a chance.

Paulo

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5494
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2018, 14:25:04 »
She was restored (from the state of the car being in cardboard boxes) over 2012-2017. Here, in Poland, by a number of specialized shops with the supervision of one mechanic, who is receiving 1-1.5 notes for his work in 190SL/Ponton area, but had no huge experience in Pagodas. So my input (studying, getting details etc.) was considerable. Since 2017 we are still perfecting the car piece by piece.

A lot of these shops in Poland are working for German customers due to lower labour costs and some skills they developed in communist times as well as recently - extensive body repairs and overhauls that would be beyond reasonable expense in a developed market were/are still making sense here, where, during communist times, anything that had 4 wheels was of value and, today, when out of pocket expense for a car is an issue.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2018, 14:37:22 »
Hi P

Yes I know some people in Poland and I have had work done there. Its great and they do not overcharge. Any chance I can see a picture of the inside. send it to my personal e mail if you like.
Paulo

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2018, 14:39:47 »

Is there a shop in Poland you would reccommend. In relation to the Seats and trim is it best bought in a Kit?

Paulo

waltklatt

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA
  • Posts: 1132
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2018, 14:51:38 »
Hello Paolo,

Nice looking 230SL there.
A few things.

Is that a chrome trim strip on the soft top above the rear window?  Hard to see in the picture, but there is a glint of chrome or flash there.
The trunk area is missing an important piece of covering over the fuel filler neck inside(find this piece and put it back as this allows fumes from the tank to waft into the car).
Then there is also the tree that sprouts from the floor to hold the spare tire.
Carpet is not original as it is a typical short fiber felt type, commonly found in British cars(Jaguar, Rolls, Etc.)
The original carpet is of the square weave of the earlier models.
Speakers are set into the wood parcel self.  Perhaps you could ask the trimmer to fabricate a new shelf top or a filler to fill the holes.

Hopefully you can sort out the missing pieces in the trunk before enjoying the car more. 

Thanks,
Walter
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 19:34:47 by waltklatt »

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2018, 14:56:58 »
 Afternoon

Its a chrome ;piece that only the 230 SL had i,m told so i,m not sure if its the original. Car was bought new in 66 by a Doctor then sold to another couple in 73, they are they owners till now. Provenance is good. The Rubber mats are missing you are correct, as is the tyre Cover. The Spare wheel has a recess it sits in. The Speakers are well, not good!. Carpet is not Original, should it be Square Weave.  Is the Piece in the Boot/Trunk the side pieces and not the floor covering you mention?

Paulo

waltklatt

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA
  • Posts: 1132
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2018, 15:16:42 »
Paolo,
See picture of red circles.
First is your picture with the missing piece.
Second is from website with circled proper cover, spare tire tree and the area of the recess for spare tire(1963-1964 SL's only).
Walter

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2018, 15:29:46 »
Walter

Thanks for the info. When you said tree, I thought you meant Tree in my Garden, I had no idea what you meant. So my car had this Tree which is now absent?

Paulo

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5494
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2018, 17:06:22 »
Paulo,

Early 230SL had the spare wheel stored in upright position on the left side of the trunk. Part of the wheel was inserted into an oval recess in the trunk floor. This, in turn, had a consequence of fuel tank being only 62l (smaller) vs. the later one of 82l. Walt says this applies to years 63-64. Later this recess for spare wheel was eliminated, the spare wheel went to the right hand side, level position, supported by this "tree" (this is the round part on the picture, then you see the wheel choke screwed to it with a butterfly nut). As a consequence the fuel tank could have been enlarged to 82l.

On your picture I saw a wheel lying on the floor in such a way, that you probably do not have this "tree" and I did not see left enough to see if you have recess on the left or not. If you do not have this recess - good, you just need this "tree". It is bolted, not welded to the floor.

If you have this recess - you do not need the tree. I am not sure if the spare wheel had a wrap when it was located upright.

Now: there is a discussion on this forum related to when Mercedes started to install bigger fuel tank and I think Members were talking that late 65 this change was comissioned. This meant cancellation of recess and moving the spare wheel to the right hand side on the tree. Which does not mean it was immediately effected in manufacturing. If you have the recess for the spare wheel and a small fuel tank - your car may be one of the last ones to have been produced with this recess.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 17:44:26 by Pawel66 »
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5494
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2018, 17:36:49 »
Paulo,

I see all the pieces you need available at www.sls-hh.de (tree, choke, spare wheel cover (if you need them), floor mats for trunk - with recess and without recess, cover for fuel filler pipe and its seal) as repros. You probably need at least right hand side trunk side panel as well. I marked it with an arrow - it is flying there while it should be pushed in position - not glued, not screwed, just pushed in and hold. You may have it damaged. But as you know what to look for - you may do your own search. You have vendors list on this site and probably there are more sources in the UK. You may post what you need in Wanted To Buy part of the forum - chances are one of the Members will have what you need and it is nicer to support a fellow Member.

I bet you, however, that this may not be your entire list of needs...

As for a shop in Poland - there are a few good ones, but I would be scared to death recommending any of them here. They are good craftsmen, have the tooling, have the materials, but are not keeping any deadlines, are not responding to phone calls and e-mails, you need to watch their back all the time. They are busy doing orders for German customers, as this is priority for them.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 17:45:22 by Pawel66 »
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2018, 18:12:30 »


Hi P

You are correct I just checked and no recess is in the car. Spare is lying on its side, so I need the Tree and cover and Trunk linings, and Tank Collar Cover. I have been talking to Tom from Mercedes Classic who is also pricing the car up.  The Car had Rubber Mats Passenger and Drivers side but Carpet everywhere else, Tom has confirmed this as well.  If it had MB Tex i Guess its best to replace with MB Tex?

Paulo

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2018, 18:14:34 »



Dear P
Please could I see your interior

Regards Paulo

Pawel66

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Poland, Mazowieckie, Konstancin-Jeziorna
  • Posts: 5494
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2018, 18:43:59 »
Paulo,

Various schools on MB-tex vs. leather replacement... Lots of discussions on the forum. Purists would go for MB-tex. Others will switch to leather....

Pictures below. It is neither a perfect interior nor the most beautiful one. It is not fully correct either. You will see incorrect speedo dial immediately, which is now corrected.

I modified my post to show you what I meant before. See the cracks on the steering wheel? This was the original one. It did not look tragic, so I decided to leave it. But then when everything was new, these cracks started sticking out big time... I replaced the steering wheel with a new one.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2018, 18:49:03 by Pawel66 »
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Paulo Versace

  • Guest
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2018, 19:21:47 »
P

It looks very nice indeed, did you buy your Interior as a kit, or did a Trimmer make them. There is a Trimmer near us in Cheshire and they manufacture to factory specification, not sure if I should buy a kit, or let him make everything. Thing is fitted they want 10,500.00 plus VAT

Paulo

waltklatt

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA
  • Posts: 1132
Re: 230 SL Pagoda
« Reply #24 on: August 22, 2018, 19:33:30 »
Paolo,
You never mentioned your mechanical/repair skills for the cars.
Perhaps you can do the new carpet set yourself to save a lot of $$.
It's not hard to do, just need to have patience and time to remove the glued down carpet pieces and clean the surface for the new carpet and glue.
Get yourself a very good upholstery carpet glue and use it well when putting the new carpet down.
Maybe you want to add some kind of soundproofing mat down too.
But for the carpet only, 10,500 quid is too much, for that there should be gold and rare gemstones embedded in there.
Walter