Tesla Model X

[mdsalemi]

The Tesla model X is Tesla's answer to an entry in the SUV or crossover market.

https://www.tesla.com/modelx

When our local MBCA section had a tech even recently at our local tuner/independent, Motorwerks

https://www.motorwerksgroup.com

there was a Tesla model X in for crash repair. What happened is that at a stop, the driver was hit in the front right at about 5 MPH.

Alarmingly, and expensively, all the airbags in the Tesla went off. In a nod to unbelievably poor design (think Elon Musk is a genius? Maybe he should send all his trash into space...) the airbags in the seat burst the leather, by design, thus destroying completely the seats. So,two completely new front leather seats were required. The fit and finish on this car is like a Chrysler/Dodge circa "the dark days". There were lot of parts shortages, ongoing. The crash happened (keep reminding yourself that this was 5MPH) back in late July, and here it is mid November, and the car is still in pieces waiting on parts. Once all the parts have arrived (except those with airbags) and put together, the car has to be flatbedded to the nearest dealer, in Cleveland for installation and testing of the airbags. Total bill will be well over $10,000. Remember, 5MPH.

It is OK to say "if this is our future I want no part of it". The consensus from those who are taking the car apart to put it back together is that it is poorly made and poorly engineered.

[UJJ]

Thanks for sharing Michael, alarming story.

[Jack Jones]

Mike,

Very interesting story and this does not surprise me in the least. I have been asked many times about my opinion of the Tesla brand and it has been and still is that it is the flavor of the week for the people that want everyone to know how green they are. When it comes down to it, the major auto manufactures can and do build a better product and will be around long after Tesla is gone.

Jack   

[MikeSimon]

Mike,

Very interesting story and this does not surprise me in the least. I have been asked many times about my opinion of the Tesla brand and it has been and still is that it is the flavor of the week for the people that want everyone to know how green they are. When it comes down to it, the major auto manufactures can and do build a better product and will be around long after Tesla is gone.

Jack

Jack: Truer words could not be spoken!
My personal opinion is, that Elon Musk's greatest talent is, to bilk investors and people with fat wallets out of their money!
One of these days, it will all come together and he will disappear or end up in jail..


On the E-car craze in general: Any idea why most of these electric vehicles run in SoCal (besides the fact that there is an overproportionate amount of rich residents..)?
--- The worst way to make heat is through electricity. A couple of years before I retired, our company worked on an alternative (to R134) a/c system.
The advantage of our approach was, it could run in reverse and be used as a heat pump. In order to demonstrate the advantage, we experimented with a Nissan Leaf and a Chevrolet (forgot the model name). The operating range of these things when using the (electrically powered) heater system dropped from 120 to 35 miles......

[mdsalemi]

Any idea why most of these electric vehicles run in SoCal

I'll tell you why, exactly: it's the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. I had TWO PEV plug-in hybrid Ford Fusions. As long as it's 72 degrees (or say between 65 and 75) and you don't need any heat or a/c, you are OK. As soon as you need climate control those batteries drain faster than a water tank shot up with a .50 caliber machine gun. Nobody talks about it, nobody at all. Where do you get that temperature range consistently? SoCal! What a surprise!

Further to that drain, the batteries themselves are like humans: they work best ONLY when they are between that same temperature range of human comfort. There was an auxiliary battery heater in the Ford to heat the batteries. Where does that power come from? The batteries! When our battery heater failed, and no part was available, our car was not drivable for a month...because the car could not heat the batteries. Nobody talks about that. Nobody.

A great example of batteries and temperature is what happened today. My iPhone 6S, a few years old, has the original battery in it. It was at 100% when I removed it from the charger yesterday morning. I spent about an hour checking some things on line, and reading the morning paper. When I was done, it was at 90%. My battery health monitor indicates that the battery is at about 85% of new capacity. I placed the phone in my pocket, went outside in 27 degree weather, and returned 45 minutes later. Without any active use or screen use, the battery was at 53%, falling from 90%. The temperature of the phone was 52 degrees in my pocket. While the battery didn't rise above 53%, it held at 53% for the rest of the day, as I took photos, and used the phone. iPhones don't have battery heaters...

I lived with those Ford Fusion PEV Hybrids as a two year, low-cost experiment. They were $40,000+ MSRP each, tricked out cars, for $200 a month, how could I say no? But sure glad they were leased and turned in! Even sold the Level II charger for about as much as I paid for it.

Airbags are only supposed to go off in a head-on collision. Airbags that destroy costly leather seats are just bad design. God only knows how that one collision will tilt the cost of insuring a Model X across the board.

The panel gaps showed unbelievable variation, signs of poor engineering and manufacturing...

[wayne R]

Michael ,Thanks for sharing that  really interesting  article.

[pj]

A friend who owns a Tesla X tells me that he was required to sign an information release, giving the Tesla company complete rights to use all video captured by the 27 cameras on board. Some folks might think that's too much of an intrusion on privacy.

[star63]

I'll tell you why, exactly: it's the elephant in the room that nobody talks about. I had TWO PEV plug-in hybrid Ford Fusions. As long as it's 72 degrees (or say between 65 and 75) and you don't need any heat or a/c, you are OK. As soon as you need climate control those batteries drain faster than a water tank shot up with a .50 caliber machine gun. Nobody talks about it, nobody at all. Where do you get that temperature range consistently? SoCal! What a surprise!

I installed an auxiliary petrol heater (Eberspächer) to my BMW i3 two weeks ago. It seems to help maintaining my electric range in the winter time (about 30% longer range). I can also use it for pre-heating. Very happy with it!
Naturally, the battery capacity is affected by the low temperature but not as much as I thought.

[Cees Klumper]

I am happy that there are at least a few companies like Toyota and Tesla who are seriously investing in a future without oil.

[AGT]

I am with Cees on this as, in our cities at least, we need to switch to non ICE cars.

I admire what Tesla has done by investing in its supercharger network and building the Model S (which is on many levels a very fine car). The future of electric cars is going to be about the charging network, battery technology and the quality of the software. The electric motors are boring and logically drive all four wheels. It will be much harder for Audi, BMW and Mercedes to retain their premium branding without their superb ICEs and with ride and handling compromised by the weight of the on board batteries. Without these key differentiators, the individuality of our cars will become blurred.

I have ordered a Jaguar I-Pace and, while I am very much looking forward to its arrival, it certainly does not kill the Model S and arguably lags behind in some key areas such as powertrain efficiency. JLR may not be a premium brand and the new offerings from Audi and Mercedes may be better, but I would not write Tesla off just yet.

Regards
Andrew

[mdsalemi]

Another elephant in the room that nobody talks about is the drain on electrical infrastructure.

The power grid around the world, presently, could probably not handle all non-fossil fuel cars. Natural gas accounts for ~45% of electricity generated in UK; coal 31%; nuclear 14% and renewables less than 6%. Thus, the electricity to power these electric cars is coming mostly from fossil fuels. Around the world, these numbers change but we still make a lot of electricity with fossil fuel.

I have no idea how the displacement would work (how much more infrastructure we'd need), but in the heat of summer in the USA, brownouts and "peak shaving" of turning off high demand usage is common. To add a large load to this network only increases the amount of fossil fuel burned. You are just shifting it back upstream you don't make it go away.  The largest and fattest electrical wire in my home is the 8 gauge required to power the Level II charger. This unit required 40A, 9,600 watts in operation when charging. That's more than the a/c and heat pump I have, more than the electric ovens, too.

But my initial posting wasn't about fossil fueled cars versus electric, not at all: it was about how such a costly car as a Tesla Model X was so poorly engineered. There is no way a car that gets hit at 5MPH should require 14 new airbags and new seats--no excuse on that at all except poor engineering.

I laugh at the post from Star63...an electric car, with an auxiliary petrol heater! What a concept!

[AGT]

Michael

Agreed that I am guilty of going off-off-topic.

You've been to Scotland and you know that  its wet and windy! Even in the height of summer. In 2017 more than 2/3rds of Scotland's energy needs were met without fossil fuels. As long as I only charge my car at home that's not too bad.

I don't disagree that Tesla's priorities can seem the wrong way round for us "petrolheads". I personally don't like their interiors. However, the things that Tesla does get right are at the very heart of what makes a good and usable electric car.

Regards
Andrew

[mbzse]

.../....I laugh at the post from Star63...an electric car, with an auxiliary petrol heater! What a concept!

One unfortunate thing is, those aux heating devices are emitting pollutants. There is no cleaning of the exhaust fumes and this affects claims of the "null emissions" from electric vehicles...

[MikeSimon]

I am familiar with the Eberspächer "Standheizung" from the old days of the Volkswagen Beetle, but how do you manage fuel supply to these units in an electric car like a Tesla without a gasoline tank. Hybrid I understand, but full electric...

[star63]

I laugh at the post from Star63...an electric car, with an auxiliary petrol heater! What a concept!

Actually, quite practical. Living in Michigan you know that proper heating makes driving much more comfortable in the winter time. Gasoline engines have a very poor energy efficiency. This is why electric cars make much sense. Modern auxiliary heaters, on the other hand, have a very high efficiency. And the fuel consumption is very low => low emissions. And you can burn ethanol instead of gasoline... 

[mdsalemi]

Actually, quite practical. Living in Michigan you know that proper heating makes driving much more comfortable in the winter time. Gasoline engines have a very poor energy efficiency. This is why electric cars make much sense. Modern auxiliary heaters, on the other hand, have a very high efficiency. And the fuel consumption is very low => low emissions. And you can burn ethanol instead of gasoline... 

According to "Energy and Power Plants" by Dr. John Zactruba, here are some efficiencies to consider:

Coal fired power plants: 32-42% (supplies 41% of the world's electricity for the grid)
Natural gas power plants: 32-38% (supplies 20% of the world's electricity for the grid)
Hydro Turbines: 85-90% (YAY Canada!)

Therefore, the energy to charge a very efficient hybrid car is coming from, generally, electrical sources on the grid that are at fairly conventional efficiencies. Of course if you live in Canada, and your power comes mostly from hydro, that's a different story. So driving an electric car today makes the owner/lessee feet very green, all they are doing is pushing the carbon emissions and efficiency (or lack thereof) upstream where the electricity is generated.

Now if you have an electric car, but have any kind of heat engine (petrol, alcohol or whatever) to "keep it warm" or related, you are just negating the effects of the car's electrical efficiency! As others pointed out small engines are not subject to any kind of emission controls.

Because we have cold winters in Michigan (gotta heat the batteries and heat the occupants) and hot summers (gotta cool the batteries and cool the occupants) PEV cars just don't make a lot of sense in this climate. The car is spending a lot of energy just managing the climate control of the occupants AND the batteries. Not so in SoCal as someone pointed out...

Unlike many who speak of PEV cars, I've owned TWO of them. They are "not ready for prime time" but I'm sure glad there are early adopters. Rather than pure PEV cars I think the Prius and Chevy Volt powertrains are the best ones for today's society, since they are well done hybrids. The Prius, ugly as it is and uninspiring in so many ways. has a solid, mature, highly engineered powertrain platform.

But again this thread wasn't about electric cars in general, or PEV vs hybrid vs gas only, but just how poorly thought out the Tesla X engineering was. This was from a high end shop that regularly tears apart everything from gull wings to Ferraris and knows a well done car when they see one. Keep reminding yourself: $10,000+  plus 90+ days to fix a 5 MPH crash...that's what started this thread here.

We of all people here, this group of Pagoda owners, shouldn't be speaking of carbon efficiencies or pollution or green or anything of the sort. A well tuned Pagoda puts out a huge amount of everything that caused the US EPA to create pollution mandates!

[Jonny B]

One anecdote I have heard, a Pagoda emits more emissions parked, with the engine off, than a modern car does with the engine running!

[mbzse]

One anecdote I have heard, a Pagoda emits more emissions parked, with the engine off, than a modern car does with the engine running!

For certain a Pagoda sure oozes out more style, even when parked   

[mdsalemi]

Speaking of "emissions" and "Pagodas" let me hijack my own thread on this topic.

For a continent that once seemingly dismissed the mandated USA emissions controls, Europe has gone so crazy green that it is beyond comprehension...let's forget the biodegradable "green" wiring harnesses on some Mercedes of a certain vintage, and focus on...my book "Pagoda Style".

Those of you in the know, might remember that a large number of these books were sold at the MB Classic Center Museum Gift Shop in Germany. I think they ended up buying from me (which founding members enjoyed in the profit-return) about 60 copies of the book and I think they sold them for 79 Euros.

A long time after the last book was sold, I got a form from the Classic Center bookshop that had to be filled out. You see, they had to pay some kind of carbon tax on the (Polyolefin) plastic wrap that protected each book, because the books were delivered without some kind of "green dot" on them. So, without the most accurate scale and with nothing even remotely like this at the retail level in the USA, the printer had to weigh the plastic on a book. It turns out that this small amount of plastic wrap weighed approximately 4g (.14 oz) per book. Then the bookshop had to fill out some form, and pay some tax to be in compliance with Germany's (or maybe EU???) "Packaging Act, Section 6 Paragraph 1". I had to send them MSDS sheet on the Sealed Air Cryovac D-955 Multi-purpose shrink film that was used. I did not have to pay any tax, but Daimler did...yes, for the usage of approximately 240 grams of polyolefin plastic wrap. Ridiculous.

[MikeSimon]

As a German expatriate and having spent my first 36 years in Europe, I can confirm all that. I always found it funny how the rules and regulations regarding the environment swung around. Especially in the auto industry. Catalytic converters were in the US, long before they came to Europe.
Let's not forget, that the short life of the 250 version of our W113 was caused by the US EPA emission rules. 

[hkollan]

Let's not forget, that the short life of the 250 version of our W113 was caused by the US EPA emission rules.

Just wondering how you came to that conclusion.

Hans K

[zak]

Yes, being a 250 SL owner I am curious about your comment, Mike.
Interesting.

jz

[MikeSimon]

If you look into the history of the EPA rules in the United States, you will find changes in 1967 that forced Daimler Benz to re-evaluate their engine offerings. They were not able to meet these requirements with the M129 and had to redesign the motor. Thus the M130. There was no such need for a change in the homeland.

[66andBlue]

Mike,
I am not sure whether the EPA in 1967 had that much influence on Daimler's board.
If you read Engelen's account (I hope you do have this book) you'll find that the decision to install the M130 engine in the W113 was driven by the competition (Porsche and BMW) who had more powerful engines and by changes in consumer taste. New customers no longer desired GT rally cars but spirited open air touring cars. Here are two excerpts from the book describing a board meeting in February 1967 when the decision for the 280SL was made.

[MikeSimon]

Well, this was the story we were given by Daimler Benz marketing guys in the 80s. Considering that roughly 50% of all SLs went to the U.S., and 1967 was a pivotal year for DOT and EPA in the U.S., it seemed believable.