Tesla Model X

[Mike Hughes]

... which means that, even though you weren't "using" your device, there were multiple search, connectivity and data apps running in the background while you were out on your walk, such as Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, navigation/location, time, weather, Internet access etc, and the path of your walk may have also caused your devicee to have to search for and switch among multiple cel towers to maintain voice and data connectivity.  It wouldn't be fair to say that the drop in available charge you observed was due to extreme low temperature alone.  The device was working the same as it would likely have been working on a more temperate day drawing current for normal stand-by and background operations, but in less than ideal temps.  Still it IS certainly an interesting observation.  I suspect it would still be more on such a cold day than on a more temperate day, but I wonder how much the charge would have dropped if all of the power robbing apps that we so rely on for near instant personal communications gratification these days were disabled?  For example, my Motorola Droid can go four or more days between charges - IF I switch off inductive charging, Bluetooth, Wi-Fi, Google Maps, Wayz, time zone, weather report, Chrome, and e-mail.   Airplane Mode gives about the same charge interval.   If I just switch off Bluetooth and Wi-Fi I can still go three days.  If everything is active it's about two. and if I am making a lot of calls, sending and receiving a lot of e-mails, opening attachments, doing Google searches, opening web-pages, downloading, etc., I may have to recharge again by the end of the day.

[MikeSimon]

Well.... it looks like Elon Musk is starting to feel the heat (and reality). Latest reports have him addressing his employees asking for extra efforts...or maybe preparing them for the inevitable...the demise of Tesla.
No great loss in my book - sorry if I offend anybody who thinks we need this for the future.

[mdsalemi]

... which means that, even though you weren't "using" your device, there were multiple search, connectivity and data apps running in the background

Mike, with all due respect: nonsense. I walk the same route every single day. Exactly the same path, give or take a few feet or so. My phone does not appreciably change charge in the spring or summer, and even when it's in the 30s or 40s, it's not changing much. But, drop down to that 0-15 degree mark, all kinds of havoc.

We are (and we're not alone) having one of those infernal "polar vortex" phenomenah. It's a new set of words, we used to call a "Canadian air mass" but I guess that annoyed our neighbors to the north (or south from where I am). It's been 3 degrees to 12 degrees F in the mornings, and for the past three days, my phone has gone from nearly fully charged at the start of the walk, to nearly dead upon my return. Today, it was at 3%, after starting at 86%. On a normal day, it may not show any drop at all, or just a few % if anything...nothing noticable or appreciable. Oh, in case you are asking, a battery app I have indicates from its own testing that my battery is at 85% of its rated life. So, it's not my specific battery.

Therefore it's the temperature pure and simple, and having had two PEV (Fusion Energi Hybrids) I can tell you that cold temps and batteries do not mix. Do. Not. Mix. I'd start with a full charge--18 mile range--and in half a mile it would drop to 12, and before you know it the Atkinson-Cycle engine would be doing all the work...in the cold.

Russel Jones, we can't get to Mooresville fast enough...

[Mike Hughes]

Hi Michael -

I wasn't disputing the fact that your phone's battery is discharging heavily in severe cold, but rather asking, as a matter of intellectual curiosity, if the rate of discharge is solely due to the cold, and not to the multiplicity of background functions the phone may be carrying out during your walk.  I then noted my phone's battery life in normal operation and also in various stages of restricted operation, such as Airplane mode (in admittedly more normal temperature ranges).  I'm still curious how much your phone would discharge if it was, for instance, placed in airplane mode during your walk in the extreme cold conditions you are currently experiencing.

I will explain why I am asking:  When Lucy and I go up to out cabin in the mountains where there is no cell service, if I don't turn the phone off it will completely discharge by the next day.  The reason why I am told is that some things running in the background cause it to be constantly "pinging" to find and connect to a cell tower.  Putting it in airplane mode slows the rate of discharge substantially.  So this ongoing discussion has piqued my curiosity:  We are likely to see some really low temps up there this weekend and I plan to leave it out in the truck in airplane mode one night to see how much more it discharges just because of the cold.

[mdsalemi]

...When Lucy and I go up to out cabin in the mountains where there is no cell service, if I don't turn the phone off it will completely discharge by the next day.  The reason why I am told is that some things running in the background cause it to be constantly "pinging" to find and connect to a cell tower.  Putting it in airplane mode slows the rate of discharge substantially.

Your observation is spot on. When a phone has issues trying to connect to a tower, the power to the transmitter is turned up, and this increases your power consumption. My daughter's high school (thank goodness!) had very poor cell service in the building; kids were not allowed to keep phones on them anyway, but she'd put it in her locker at full charge at 7:30am, and when it was time to leave at 2:15pm it would be nearly dead--as the phone spent all day trying to connect, cranking up the power trying in a futile attempt to grab a tower. Turned out that this was exacerbated by a partial failure of the transmitter in the phone which just exacerbated the problem.

There are plenty of academic research studies on this, just google "effect of temperature on lithium ion batteries" and you'll see. My Ford Fusions had battery heaters. When the battery heaters don't work, the car is essentially disabled. Been there and done that, and waited 5 weeks for a replacement heater a few years ago, rendering the car unusable during that time period. "Waiting for Godot".

[mbzse]

..../....how ambient temperature, which results in changing climate control needs for a car, wildly affect how such a car can perform. That's why it's the elephant in the room, and why these are often tested in [temp stable] SoCal. For anyone to expect a battery to perform the same in -20 degrees and 105 degrees doesn't know about batteries, I'm afraid...

AAA have published a thesis on this theme, see https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/10/18217041/electric-car-ev-extreme-weather-polar-vortex

[mdsalemi]

AAA have published a thesis on this theme, see https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/10/18217041/electric-car-ev-extreme-weather-polar-vortex

...and don't forget battery-sucking hot weather as well!  When you have that AC on MAX when the ambient temperature is in the 90s and the cockpit temperature is a dog- and child-killing 120 degrees, try running a 3 to 5 ton capacity air conditioner on AA cells...which exactly what the EV's use.

Oh, and here is an update on that infamous Model X that engendered this thread.  It is STILL at the repair shop! Yes, it's all done, but waiting on Tesla's team to come and re-program the ECUs (they won't allow anyone else to do that) and once they do that it still has to get flatbedded to the nearest dealer in the Cleveland area for the airbag install. Remember this crash happened last summer.

My friend at the shop told me this morning that he ordered a control arm for this Model X at the beginning of September, and it was 6 weeks before Tesla shipped the part. By contrast, he recently ordered a similar control arm for an Audi A8, and Audi had it at his shop in 6 hours.

So I've yet to jump on board the EV train or drink the Tesla Kool-Aid. And, while I'm at it, the whole self driving car phenom, or "mobility 2.0" as some want to call it has a LOOOOOONG way to go in sensor technology before it is "ready for prime time".  I understand the sensors not working properly in freezing rain and sleet--but guess what folks--that's the weather!  Last week my adaptive cruise sensors stopped working in the heavy rain...long, long way to go...

[neelyrc]

.....Oh, and here is an update on that infamous Model X that engendered this thread.  It is STILL at the repair shop!........

Yesterday the Wall Street Journal reported on the Tesla Service problem.
 
https://www.wsj.com/articles/tesla-is-cranking-out-model-3snow-it-has-to-service-them-11549810800

[66andBlue]

While we are discussing the batteries in Teslas I came across an interesting and somewhat frightening story about these batteries when they burn up:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-25/tesla-fires-what-first-responders-don-t-know-about-fiery-evs

My curiosity was prompted by a link on the German Pagodentreff web site to an Austrian newspaper article that stated that 11,000 liter (= 2,906 gallons) are required to completely extinguish a burning Tesla while a normal fire tanker carries only 2,000 liter. That prompted the fire district to acquire a special trailer to remove the smoldering car:

[Pawel66]

What if this kind of car ignites in the multi-floor garage in the basement of the skyscraper full of people during the work day?

[MikeSimon]

Another indication, from a different vehicle segment, that we are quite a way away from safe, reliable electric propulsion system for the masses:
Harley Davidson has halted production and sales of their "Life Wire" electric motorcycle due to problems associated with "at home charging"