Author Topic: Trouble with NC title HELP  (Read 4990 times)

russelljones48

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • USA, NC, Mooresville
  • Posts: 142
Trouble with NC title HELP
« on: February 20, 2019, 19:15:56 »
I'm having difficulty with the NC DMV converting my car's California title to a NC title and would like to know if anyone has had a similar problem and if or how you got around it.  California titled my car (67 230SL with the VIN as "230SL nnnnnnn" (the "nnnnnnn"being the embossed number on the VIN plate and (apparently) the 230SL as an extrapolation/conversion of the chassis/model code.  NC DMV is refusing to re-title the car without re-issuing the title with all of the numbers (chassis/model and embossed serial number as the VIN.  In order to do that they require a 3 year bond for 1.5 times the value of the car.  I'm not quite clear on this but I think after 3 years the title becomes clear.   
I certainly find their refusal to accept a valid California title as a bit silly and wasteful but what I wonder is this: is there anyway to prove that Mercedes considers the embossed number as the VIN without the chassis ID numbers?  Or other ways someone may have gotten around this problem?

any help is appreciated

russelljones48

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • USA, NC, Mooresville
  • Posts: 142
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2019, 19:17:34 »
BTW - it took me a while but I found and verified the frame stamping for the DMV rep but that didn't change his answer

cabrioletturbo

  • Associate Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • Canada, Ontario, Ottawa
  • Posts: 486
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2019, 20:03:58 »
One should exercise every caution when buying a car without a proper VIN number. I have had several opportunities to buy an older benz with missing ownership/title documents, missing numbers, wrong numbers, local DMV numbers - to name a few. I walked away, every time. Why? Sound sleep is more important.

I was dismayed by how lax the rules are in good part of NA, to the point that you could even transfer a vehicle ownership without previous owner's consent. Lawyer affidavit and off you go (Ontario).

Think for a moment what you are asking your jurisdiction to do: to register a car with '230nnnn' VIN number? Would you do it, if a vehicle like that was presented to you?
To remind any buyer, VIN number is supposed to be UNIQUE vehicle identification number, with the proper digit allocation and each digit has its purpose. It is obviously that something has happened to your car before you bought it. Any recorded history? Can you find the imprint on the frame that could potentially be a correct VIN number?

In my mind, they are VERY reasonable in your case. I would do what is needed to do to get the job done. There is a plenty of solid, proper vehicles that you could acquire. Why buying a problem?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 20:09:58 by cabrioletturbo »
Igor
1965 W113 230SL, Ivory with Black

Mike Hughes

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, VA, Blue Grass
  • Posts: 1750
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2019, 22:22:45 »
The issue is that there is an international convention regarding the 17 digit VINs found on all vehicles beginning with the 1981 model year.  Among other things, the convention required the use of capital letters and numbers only, eliminating the use of special characters and also the letters "I" and "O," as the numbers "1" and "0" are too similar in appearance.  VINs prior to the 1980 model year did not have conform to any specific standards and could be any number and sequence of letters, numbers and special characters that each individual manufacturer chose for their own records.  I have pre and post war vehicles with serial numbers that range from six to sixteen digits.

The Daimler Benz serial number convention for vehicles produced in the era in which our Pagodas were manufactured specified a 16 digit sequence of 14 numbers separated at specific intervals by two dashes, in which the first six digit string and the dash-separated second two digit string describe the chassis, engine, transmission and right or left-hand steering, while the dash-separated third six digit string is the chassis number.  Example:  113043-12-012345  It sounds like the VIN on your California title does not conform to this convention.

Because the 17 digit VIN convention has been in effect for decades now, DMV, dealership and even insurance company computer software contains an algorithm based on a "check digit" in the 10th place of the 17 digit string that can verify correct VINs.  If a DMV operator makes a keypunch error the VIN will be rejected, which is supposed to prevent entering improper information into the DMV database.  When a title is presented with more or fewer than 17 digits, or the 17 digit is "invalid" because of a prior keypunch error that causes a validation conflict with the "check digit" in the 10th place of the 17 digit string, a supervisor over-ride is necessary to process the DMV transaction.  Most supervisors may only be authorized to perform an override if they can verify that the information that the operator is trying to enter is consistent with the official title being presented, but they don't have the authority to correct the information presented.  Others may have to verify the information is consistent with the VIN on the vehicle.  Most likely they may also have to file a report to document each and every such over-ride.  In some states, supervisor over-rides are no longer authorized, and such cases are "kicked upstairs" for action.  It sounds like NC only authorizes over-rides if DMV can be held harmless through the posting of a bond.

This is not surprising in that once upon a time there were places in NC that were a hot bed of odometer rollbacks, chassis number modifications and other used car/stolen car shenanigans.

Let me preface the following by acknowledging that the rules pertaining to correcting VIN errors in NC today may likely be different from what I have experienced in VA on two different occasions in VA roughly 30 years ago.

In both cases I was able to speak with the General Manager of my local DMV office, who summoned a State Police officer.  The two of them together viewed the  correct VIN as found stamped on a frame rail, vin plate, or (in the case of a 1934 M.G.) bonnet hinge.  What they were looking for was evidence of the same sequence in two places on the vehicle.  They jointly signed an affidavit verifying their findings.  The affidavit was forwarded by the local DMV office GM to VA DMV headquarters in Richmond, along with the title provided by the seller and my application for new title and Antique Vehicle registration.  After review, the correct VIN sequence was eventually approved to be entered into VA DMV records.  It seemed like forever at the time, but in each case I think it may have taken a month or so for my new title and plates to arrive direct from Richmond.

I must say that both of these experiences have caused me to be hyper vigilant about scrutinizing and comparing VINs on both the title and the car over the years.  The only time since then that I found a VIN discrepancy I refused to continue with the purchase until the seller was able to present a corrected title.  It really should not be up to the buyer to correct such discrepancies (even if the buyer might be more knowledgeable about the nature of the discrepancy).  Believe me, a motivated seller will get it handled!

One should also be wary of situations in which the seller wants to convey a title reassigned multiple times by individuals as the vehicle was passed on to subsequent buyers by sellers unwilling to go to the trouble and/or expense of obtaining title in their own names before reselling the vehicle.  If obtaining a vehicle from a private party you want to be presented with a clear title in the name of the individual from whom you are purchasing the vehicle.  Only a licensed dealer is authorized to reassign a title to a third party.

Now I'm going to ask a question:  Were you the owner of your California titled and registered 230SL when you were a California resident and have now moved to NC, or are you a NC resident who has newly acquired your 230SL from a California resident?
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 00:42:51 by Mike Hughes »
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

Mike Hughes

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, VA, Blue Grass
  • Posts: 1750
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2019, 22:24:33 »
BTW - it took me a while but I found and verified the frame stamping for the DMV rep but that didn't change his answer

Go to a different DMV office and ask for the manager.
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

Shvegel

  • Inactive
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, OH, Cleveland Heights
  • Posts: 2978
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2019, 01:43:13 »
Walk into the shadiest looking used car lot you can find and tell them your problem.  Most used car lots have a "Hookup" they will share with you.  Bring a $100 bill.

russelljones48

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • USA, NC, Mooresville
  • Posts: 142
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2019, 12:51:38 »
CABRIOLETTURBO, my problem isn't that the car has improper VIN identification.  The car I bought is properly stamped and marked and has a correct VIN plate on the firewall and a matching stamped number on the forward passenger frame rail.  Those numbers have been verified by the DMV officer.  The car was also transferred to me with a valid California title and registration.  My frustration is that NC won't accept those valid documents and issue me a NC title without requiring a bond for 1.5 times the value of the car and a lot of extra paperwork and notary services - a PITA.

russelljones48

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • USA, NC, Mooresville
  • Posts: 142
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2019, 13:02:14 »
MIKE, Thank you for the detailed explanation.  I was aware that VIN's had been standardized by international convention but not of the details or timeframes.  I think the problem is going to have to be rectified by following the process since CA. transliterated the leading numbers to the alphanumeric 230SL.  In the end I guess I'll end up with a "better" title.  It's even more frustrating that NC will correct/change up to 3 digits but not be flexible enough to change the transliteration back the Mercedes chassis/model numbers....

russelljones48

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • USA, NC, Mooresville
  • Posts: 142
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2019, 13:25:50 »
MIKE, Although I did live in CA. for 20 years and very close to the seller of this car - I purchased this car from the owner in CA. and have had the car transported to NC where it is being re-titled. 

Benz Dr.

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7220
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2019, 16:47:03 »
One should exercise every caution when buying a car without a proper VIN number. I have had several opportunities to buy an older benz with missing ownership/title documents, missing numbers, wrong numbers, local DMV numbers - to name a few. I walked away, every time. Why? Sound sleep is more important.

I was dismayed by how lax the rules are in good part of NA, to the point that you could even transfer a vehicle ownership without previous owner's consent. Lawyer affidavit and off you go (Ontario).

Think for a moment what you are asking your jurisdiction to do: to register a car with '230nnnn' VIN number? Would you do it, if a vehicle like that was presented to you?
To remind any buyer, VIN number is supposed to be UNIQUE vehicle identification number, with the proper digit allocation and each digit has its purpose. It is obviously that something has happened to your car before you bought it. Any recorded history? Can you find the imprint on the frame that could potentially be a correct VIN number?

In my mind, they are VERY reasonable in your case. I would do what is needed to do to get the job done. There is a plenty of solid, proper vehicles that you could acquire. Why buying a problem?

Really? You can't just go to a lawyer and sign a couple of papers and then hand that to Service Ontario. If you have a title for a car that was already in the Ontario data base then maybe; if the car is not in their data base and is from outside Ontario, good luck with that idea........
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

cabrioletturbo

  • Associate Member
  • Silver
  • ****
  • Canada, Ontario, Ottawa
  • Posts: 486
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2019, 18:31:30 »
Really? You can't just go to a lawyer and sign a couple of papers and then hand that to Service Ontario. If you have a title for a car that was already in the Ontario data base then maybe; if the car is not in their data base and is from outside Ontario, good luck with that idea........

Dan, you need to bring your glasses with you and use them before replying.
I said without owner's consent, not without ownership...
Igor
1965 W113 230SL, Ivory with Black

Benz Dr.

  • Associate Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Port Lambton
  • Posts: 7220
  • Benz Dr.
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2019, 19:56:17 »
How exactly do you change an ownership without the owner's signature?
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

kampala

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, Beach Cities
  • Posts: 1246
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2019, 21:43:16 »
Listing the VIN on the ownership cert as you described ( 230slnnnnnn ) was very common in California.  I have seen many California certs showing the VIN this way and not the full digits.  In fact I think member John (49er) maybe able to confirm if his owner cert is listed as such   

Attached is a California owner cert from Motoring Investments site.  The vin is listed same as yours. 

« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 05:25:31 by kampala »
250sl - later - manual
280sl - 1971 - Auto - LSD

PSB

  • Inactive
  • Senior
  • ***
  • Portugal, Lisbon, Estoril
  • Posts: 126
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2019, 01:14:28 »
Hi Russel,
My 230SL was a CA car imported in 2008 to Ireland and then to Portugal in 2016.
It had the same problem .... The Irish registration doc had 230SL written before the 14 digit VIN number in the registration doc (owner certificate). It actually had one additional problem...the last digit was written as an S instead of a 5 . Major headache as Portugal wouldn't accept to register the car. I tracked down previous CA registration and both errors were already there in the 80s . The Irish registration just perpetuated the error....none seemed to have noticed the 230SL before the Vin digits or the 5 at the end. After a year of numerous visits to the Portuguese vehicle authorities , letter from MB in Portugal, copies of the well known books on W113  describing  a VIn make up I was about to dismantle the car and sell it as spares !!!!!had tried speaking to the U.S. CA Registration authority (??) and the reply was "send the car over and we will analyze  the problem".  Then an Irish friend said "Irish are so pragmatic why don't you try changing the Irish owners certificate ".  One phone call to the vehicle registrar and the lady who said that she could understand my problem (sweet words) . She asked that I send the original Irish doc back to her, plus the  portugal MB letter explaining how the vin is composed and how 230SL was model not vin and that the S had to be a number ( no translation needed to English either..) , some photocopies of the vin description from any of the books I mentioned. A week later I received a correctly matching owner certificate ( with the name of previous Irish owner ) and was then able to do the portuguese import and registration with no issue. Not much help to you but ....it just took one person to stop, listen and think ...instead of the 12 others I had spoken to who couldn't see past the obvious. I hope you get an understanding person , but perhaps try getting a letter from MB describing the Vin process and why 230sl is not part of it.
Regards
Pedro

Jordan

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • Canada, ON, Jordan
  • Posts: 1436
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2019, 12:34:06 »
Russell, I would get a letter from the State police confirming the actual VIN (they would have to come out for a visit if they haven't already done so), some pictures and whatever other docs you have and as suggested go to another DMV office.  Preferably one that is very busy.  You might have to go to a larger city.  Don't let them know you have been turned down by another office.  There are lots of DMV offices so you can keep going until you find the one person that will actually help you out.  Lots of leg work but hopefully it will get resolved. 
Marcus
66 230SL  Euro 4 speed

49er

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, El Dorado Hills
  • Posts: 1426
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2019, 14:37:44 »
In fact I think member John (49er) maybe able to confirm if his owner cert is listed as such    .

 Yes Oz, my Certificate is identical. The car is still re registered here in CA every year with the same VIN that was issued in '68.

John
1969 280SL 003820
Un Restored, All Original, including the paint
Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010

Mike Hughes

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, VA, Blue Grass
  • Posts: 1750
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2019, 21:12:22 »
This is purely speculation but I am beginning to see a pattern:  From what others are posting it is beginning to appear as though California simply made up 11 digit VINS that incorporated only the last six digits of the 14 digit DB serial number back in the era before 17 digit VINs.  This may be because domestic vehicle manufacturers were all using 11 digit VINs back then so the California DMV computer system was set up with an 11 digit VIN field.  The 14 digit DB VIN wouldn't fit so they made up a five digit vehicle descriptor followed by the chassis number from the DB VIN in the last six digits.  In the case of a Pagoda the five digit vehicle descriptor is obvious: 2?0SL.  When all the DMV computer systems were upgraded to accept the new 17 VINS in 1980 for the '81 model year all the shorter VINS were grandfathered in their databases.

So now the issue is:  Will California DMV be willing to correct their grandfathered 11 digit VIN record to reflect the correct 14 digit DB VIN and issue a corrected title?
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

49er

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, El Dorado Hills
  • Posts: 1426
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2019, 21:42:38 »
So now the issue is:  Will California DMV be willing to correct their grandfathered 11 digit VIN record to reflect the correct 14 digit DB VIN and issue a corrected title?

 Hello Mike, California's DMV has gone through 3 Directors in the last 32 days because of the problems related to issuing the new TSA approved "Real ID" Driver's licenses. Individuals have been waiting several months to have their permanent licenses issued after submitting the proper documents. So far, vehicle registrations both new and renewal are being processed OK but I doubt anything will be happening in the foreseeable future to update their system.

John
1969 280SL 003820
Un Restored, All Original, including the paint
Original Owner, Purchased September 18, 1968
4 speed manual, PS. 77217 miles
7280 miles since awoken from her 20+ yr "nap" in 2010

Mike Hughes

  • Full Member
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, VA, Blue Grass
  • Posts: 1750
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2019, 23:15:17 »
Yep, I've heard about that.  They've got their hands full right now complying with the Real ID directive.

As long as an older CA registered vehicle continues to be registered in CA there isn't likely to be any problem, even if ownership of the CA registered vehicle is transferred to another CA resident.  CA DMV recognizes its own grandfathered vehicle records as valid.  It's when the CA registered vehicle leaves CA and has to be re-registered outside of CA that it has the potential to mushroom into the kind of problem that Russell describes.
- Mike Hughes  -ô¿ô-
  1966 230SL Auto P/S
  Havana Brown (408)
  Light Beige (181)
  Cream M-B Tex (121)

russelljones48

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • USA, NC, Mooresville
  • Posts: 142
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2019, 13:07:34 »
so, in the interest of making lemonade...  I guess this proves that my car is truly a Ca. car - or has been since at least 1980.  The condition certainly backs that up.  I've spent a good deal of time going over the undercarriage and can't find a sign of rust.. 

Jonny B

  • Pagoda SL Board
  • Platinum
  • ******
  • USA, CA, San Marcos
  • Posts: 4198
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #20 on: March 04, 2019, 02:37:19 »
Well, you made me look. I brought my 250 SL into Cali in 2010 and a 280 SL in 2011. I just checked both titles. The identification number is the actual MB VIN, starting with 113......
Jonny B
1967 250 SL Auto, DB 568
1970 280 SL Auto, DB 904
1966 Morris Mini Minor

rjmarco

  • Associate Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • USA, CA, Alamo
  • Posts: 178
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #21 on: March 04, 2019, 03:58:57 »
Ditto for me.  I brought my car to California 2012.  I have a VIN starting with 113042.....
Rich
Alamo, CA

russelljones48

  • Full Member
  • Senior
  • ***
  • USA, NC, Mooresville
  • Posts: 142
Re: Trouble with NC title HELP
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2019, 11:53:16 »
I wanted to thank you all for your contributions to the "mystery" - Mike Hughes especially and others for posting and describing their VINs.  Although it's not fully resolved yet, it looks like the resolution will be for us to post the required "surety bond" following NC procedure and we will be issued a valid NC title with all of the numbers from the vehicle firewall plate and frame numbers.  You all have probably provided me with enough info to contest the NC DMV but the time and angst are not worth the $150 cost of the surety bond.  I should mention the wrinkle on the surety bond should anyone else stumble into this problem in the future.  The NC requirement for the bond (in short) is that a 3 year bond for 1.5 times the value of the vehicle must be procured from a licensed NC insurance company.  This bond is available online for $20 per thousand of value - that would be a bigger "oops" were it not for the fact that NC valued our car at $5000 since it's being registered as an antique.  I'm not sure how NC values the car but  I'm not contesting that decision - the bond would have cost me $1500 had the value been set at market.
In short, it appears that my CA. title was issued with a VIN that conformed to Ca. standards up to 1981 so I'm actually pleased that this further validates the likelihood that our car is an original Ca. car.
So, we're in the process of getting the bond through our agent and don't anticipate any further problems.