Radiator

[bpossel]

Planning ahead.....

I am planning on replacing my radiator within the next couple of months.

What is the best source (vendor) for high efficiency radiators?  Lowest cost, etc...?

Thanks!
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[mdsalemi]

Hi Bob,

With these hot running cars, radiators are on everyone's mind.

On eBay and in The Star magazine, there are advertisements for Tigris International in Houston that advertise "heavy duty radiators":

Radiator: new for 280SL, W113 chassis, 1968-71, heavy duty, made in Germany. Tigris International, 713/628-1362.

There is also a guy (rarepart)on eBay that has apparently duplicated, in California, (that means repro) the 113 radiator but in a heavy duty model; he advertises these all the time at about $395

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7951168599&category=43955

Note that a factory new radiator from MB is something on the order of $2,000 (gulp) even our friend Tom Hanson when he was at Caliber said (They are $2,000--that buys a LOT of custom radiators) which of course is your THIRD option--going to a custom radiator shop and having them fabricate one for you.

I have no idea on how good any of this is, but they are worth a look if you need to get one...and IF you do choose a Tigris, Rarepart, or other, please let us know!!!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[George Davis]

Bob,

My suggestion is to take your radiator to a good, local rad shop.  Tell them you want a high efficiency core installed and see what they can offer you.  If they can fit another row of tubes, perhaps with dimpled tubes and higher fin count, this will probably be your least-cost option.  If they can't offer something you're satisfied with, the other options are still open.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[J. Huber]

Hi Bob. George's suggestion is a good one. I think most good radiator shops have knowledge and access to high-efficiency upgrades. In my case, I used a local guy on the recommendation of my mechanic. He sent it out to a Sacramento-based shop (nearest "large town")-- they added a row/ with dimples, fins etc. A few days and about 700 bucks (including labor) got it done. You could save the labor if you are handy.

James
63 230SL

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by J. Huber

Hi Bob. George's suggestion is a good one. I think most good radiator shops have knowledge and access to high-efficiency upgrades. In my case, I used a local guy on the recommendation of my mechanic. He sent it out to a Sacramento-based shop (nearest "large town")-- they added a row/ with dimples, fins etc. A few days and about 700 bucks (including labor) got it done. You could save the labor if you are handy.

James
63 230SL

Note that the price of the two "new" radiators is probably about the cost of the mods noted by James...also, might want to chat online with TR (Tom Rose in Boise) who is on a mission regarding the cooling of these cars--he's done all kinds of things already of which the radiator is just one little part, believe it or not!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[George Davis]

I think the rad shop charged me US$220-230 for the high efficiency recore; maybe less, but I'm certain it wasn't more.  I r&r'd it myself, so that's the amount to compare to the price of a new rad.

George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual

[bpossel]

Thanks all for your replies and suggestions!!!

Question, I contacted the local radiator shop here in Memphis.  Their charge to re-core w/high eff. is between $300 and $400.

If you were me, would you keep the original radiator and have it re-cored, or....  buy the high eff radiator off of ebay for $395???


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7951168599&category=43955


Want to do the right thing.

Thanks again
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[Cees Klumper]

Bob - if I were faced with that decision (spend up to $400 on having your existing radiator recored or buying this new "high-efficiency" one from rarepart for about the same amount), I would go with the new one. Might want to make sure I could return it if not happy with it for a reasonable ($100?) restocking charge.

Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic

[mdsalemi]

Bob,

Rather then deal with eBay, contact the vendors directly and pay by charge card.  Eliminate the middle man (eBay) and you will probably do better on a relationship basis and avoid the problems that some have.  Tigris (Houston) advertises directly in Star; rarepart seems to have a few of these, so it isn't a "one off" item.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[bpossel]

Michael,

I called Tigras directly this afternoon.  They told me to buy via ebay.  Based on your post, not sure why they directed me this way?

Does anyone see any reason that I should not buy one of these high eff units from Tigras?  FYI...  the rep from Tigras quoted $420 for the radiator.  On ebay the price is $395.  The rep was surprised when I told him the 395 price on ebay....

Again, thanks all for your comments!
Bob

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

Bob,

Rather then deal with eBay, contact the vendors directly and pay by charge card.  Eliminate the middle man (eBay) and you will probably do better on a relationship basis and avoid the problems that some have.  Tigris (Houston) advertises directly in Star; rarepart seems to have a few of these, so it isn't a "one off" item.

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[n/a]

Well, for what it's worth, I went through this...the "perfect fit" radiator that I ordered (for $700) turned out NOT to fit and was way off. Fortunately the supplier took it back. I then took my old radiator to a local radiator shop and had it recored with a higher-density core- about $400- and it has performed perfectly ever since. Based on my experience, I would not trust an aftermarket part to fit an original car. You could, of course, order an OEM part from MD, which would be about $1500-$2000. AND, you would get the original low=performance core. In my case, the choice was easy to make.

[bpossel]

Update...  Going ahead and taking a risk...

I have ordered the heavy duty radiator from the ebay guy ... rarepart.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7951168599&category=43955
When I get this repo unit, I will let the group know how it fits, and hopefully, ... works perfectly.  I will save my old radiator just in case...
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[J. Huber]

Shoot, looking at what other's paid, I wondered if I paid too much for a H-E radiator from my local guy ($700). Wouldn't be the first time... Anyway, the invoice isn't too specific but 700 covered a H-E radiator (dimpled/extra row using existing top & bottom), coolant, labor in and out (included taking off hood that may have taken them some time?), and R&R and painting of expansion tank. It had a bubbly corrosion spot which they said recommended be patched up. I wouldn't think this took much time but not sure.... I was happy just to get the car back!

And its nice that the old needle stays put no matter what kind of driving/weather.

Good luck Bob.

James
63 230SL

[mdsalemi]

quote:Originally posted by J. Huber

Shoot, looking at what other's paid, I wondered if I paid too much for a H-E radiator from my local guy ($700). Wouldn't be the first time... Anyway, the invoice isn't too specific but 700 covered a H-E radiator (dimpled/extra row using existing top & bottom), coolant, labor in and out (included taking off hood that may have taken them some time?), and R&R and painting of expansion tank. It had a bubbly corrosion spot which they said recommended be patched up. I wouldn't think this took much time but not sure.... I was happy just to get the car back!

And its nice that the old needle stays put no matter what kind of driving/weather.

Good luck Bob.

James
63 230SL

Hey Jim, don't feel bad...from what I've heard taking the hood off and on, and doing it correctly without destroying anything in the process might be worth $700 alone!

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[hauser]

Someone PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong.  Isn't there a difference between radiators for an automatic and a manual transmission???

1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.

[bpossel]

Hi Hauser,

Someone who knows the detailed engineering of radiators needs to step in here, but I would think that there is a difference between an automatic and manual.  For an automatic, there is an extra cooling outlet on the radiator (bottom) for our cars.  This is why resellers ask you to specify if you have an automatic or manual.

I spoke to Harry (rarepart on ebay) today to settle up.  After speaking to him, I am now anxious to receive the new high eff radiator.  Harry is a chemical engineer by profession and has worked with a german engineer to come up with this radiators design.  Harry owns a 1971 280sl and is using this in his car.  

I expect to receive the new radiator within the next week or so.  I will take lots of pictures of my old, original radiator and this new one.  I plan to fully document this for our 113 group.

If this looks original and keeps the car cool w/air running, in stop and go summer weather, then this is a good alternative.  Lets see how I make out.  Again, will keep this group updated.

Regards,
Bob

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[bpossel]

Here is some add'l info on the high eff radiator that I am going to install:

The HE radiator has three rows of new core tubes.
Each row has 47 tubes.  There is a total of 141 tubes
for the HE radiator.   Heat exchange fins are tightly
packed.   The new top and bottom tanks were duplicated
and molded from those of the original radiator and made with thick gauge material for durability.  No mercedes stamping number.  Two mounting 10 mm nuts on the right side for mounting to the body.  Four 8 mm nuts on the front corners for mounting of the fan
shroud.   Two through-hole bracket on the left side
for mounting of the oil cooler.  Radiator is painted with the standard radiator gloss black paint.  New transmission cooler  in the bottom tank.  New drain plug.  

Bob

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bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[bpossel]

Update...

I received the after market high efficiency radiator today.  Attached are 2 pictures showing my old radiator next to the new one. One pic is the front side, one is the back side.  The new one looks virtually identical to the one I pulled from my car, it just doesn’t have any brand stamps, ie. BEHR.

Pulling the old radiator out was a bit of a challenge.  Taking the hood off was easy.  Followed the earlier posts, used painters tape around the edge of the car around the hood opening.  Used the metal hook off of a rubber bungee cord to hold the hood tension bar.  Removed the drivers side hinge while my son held the hood on the pass side.  With the one hinge removed, we simply slide the hood off.  I hope it goes on and lines up as easily…

Drained the radiator fluid and the oil cooler.   Disconnected all hoses.  Placed my jack under the radiator to hold it while I was removing the screws.  Had to completely remove the air cleaner housing in order to get to the lower radiator screw, pass side.  I though that I could leave the fan shroud connected and slide the entire radiator, oil cooler and fan shroud out, but the shroud caught on the lower fan blades.  Had to remove the screws on the fan shroud and push the shroud onto the fan, leaving it hang on the fan while I slide out the old radiator (oil cooler attached).  I then removed the fan shroud.

Now, lots of cleaning… and repainting of the oil cooler and fan shroud before I re-install all.

More to come….


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bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[mdsalemi]

Looking might good!  Is the standard radiator 2 rows?  What did the engineer tell you about what makes this one higher efficiency?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[bpossel]

Hi Michael,
The engineer told me that this HE radiator has three rows of new core tubes. Each row has 47 tubes. There is a total of 141 tubes
for his HE radiator. Heat exchange fins are tightly
packed.  I believe our old, originals have only 2 rows?  This is from what I have read.

Bob

quote:Originally posted by mdsalemi

Looking might good!  Is the standard radiator 2 rows?  What did the engineer tell you about what makes this one higher efficiency?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

[Vince Canepa]

For future radiator removals, the radiator can be removed from the bottom.  I always removed the hood and went out the top until Jim Villers tried it out the bottom.  I've done it on another car since.  It is actually easier.

Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex

[KevinC]

Bob,

I will be needing a new radiator soon. Keep us/me (kjcaputo@bellsouth.net) posted on your satisfaction with the HE version from "rarepart".

Thanks!
-Kevin

1967 230 SL
670 Light Ivory
113 Bronze/Brown MB Tex

[bpossel]

Radiator Update

Finished installing the new high eff radiator last night.  All looks good!  I ran the car at idle in the garage and the temp holds a very nice 179-180.  The real test will be when I drive in stop and go traffic.  I will update you on this when I do the complete "city drive" test.

I will post pics below... but first to summarize this after market high eff radiator...

My choice was to have my old radiator recored, or buy this after market one (new, original MB out of the question $$$).  To have a local shop recor would have cost about the same as this new after market one.  So I chose the later.

To summarize:
1. Cost - reasonable
2. Overall look - very close to original!
3. Paint quality - good, but paint seems to scratch off easy
4. Had to drill one of my fan shroud holes ~1/8 inch larger to make the shroud line up with all 4 bolts.
5. Had to rebend the small metal bracket that holds the top of the shroud to the radiator.  There was too much weld under the top lip that made the lip of the radiator not hold the bracket as designed.
6. Drain plug is on drivers side, vs original being on the pass side.  Also, drain plug no longer requires a washer.  Its a pressure fit type of plug.
7.  All hose connections went on the radiator perfectly!  No problems.
8.  All 4 bolts that hold the radiator to the chassis were perfect, no issues!

Here are some pics...
A. Complete radiator with oil cooler and fan shroud attached:


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Here are some pics with the new radiator installed in the car.  Please excuse how badly mangled my air-conditioner coils are.  Not sure what has happened to this over the years?  Takes away from the nice look of the new radiator..  Oh well, this will be hidden by the hood...

More to come as I test drive the car in stop and go traffic.  This may not be until next weekend....

bpossel
Memphis, TN.
1971 280SL
1997 E320

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[mdsalemi]

Bob,

Thanks for being a pioneer in this area.  It has to be as good or better then what you have.

One item of concern for me is your comment on how easy the paint flakes off.  A bad paint job is often more useless then none at all!  Nothing will make your radiator look old quickly then to start having all the finish flaking off in the next few months as the car starts to be used.  Since you are this guy's customer now (the engineer who had it made) perhaps you have an in to get some questions answered, such as can this radiator stand up to powder coating?  What about these high-temperature powder coats--I think it is called jet hot?  What about getting it w/o paint, or perhaps changing the paint process?

Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored

[ja17]

Hello Michael,
I used a commerical two stage urethane paint about ten years ago on a radiator. I used an etch primer first. The paint set up nice and hard and is easy to clean and is solvent and gasoline resistant. I made it the correct semi-gloss black.  It still looks great.

I don't know the answere to the powder coating question. Theoretically any coating over the natural metal on the radiator could become an insulator between the metal and the air, thus diminishing the thermal efficiency!

Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio