Author Topic: Cold Starting Valve  (Read 9593 times)

Pawel66

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2019, 11:07:52 »
This discussion, at this stage, is far ahead of the front line of my knowledge, but I just thought, as you mentioned a potential compression issue, to check if you followed the recommended procedure of doing this.

https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/Compression
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Berggreen

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2020, 08:15:57 »
Hi,
Once you solve the oil/compression issue, should you wish to replace the TTS, there are several replacement parts (new) on the market, at least in Europe, made by either VDO (the original manufacturer of all the TTSs I have seen) or by Bosch, going for about 70 to 200€:

https://www.theslshop.com/parts-shop/mercedes-benz-r107-350sl-c-w113-thermostat-time-switch-0015459224.html (VDO)
https://www.niemoeller.de/en/search/D%2008%20551 (VDO again)
https://www.sls-hh-shop.de/main/de/mercedes-230-280sl-w113/15-motorelektrik/07-c-elektrische-regulierung/thermozeitschalter-bosch-bauart-siehe-bild-p-134504 (Bosch)

Hard to believe the same part can be found for either 70€ or 200€ from two reputable vendors, so may need to be checked before ordering.

Best of luck with the repairs.

Be careful with the two VDO TTS above from the SL Shop and Niemöller. They are not the same spec as the original TTS, because they open at 20C instead of 35C. Also you will need to modify and buy the plug to make it work.

The Bosch has almost the same specs as the VDO, and it works very well - have one installed on my ‘70 280SL. However, as it is somewhat longer than the VDO, and I found that it would not fit in my ‘71 280SL, where the TTS sits in a connector together with coolant tubes to/from the injection pump. In my ‘70 280SL, the TTS sits at the very rear of engine left side, and where is plenty of space for the longer BOSCH TTS.

I do have a surplus of two original VDO TTS, which are both brand new. So, if you (or anyone else) need a new original TTS, then please let me know.

The BOSCH TTS also require a special plug and some re-wirering to work, and I also have wire diagrams I received through communication with the Bosch classic department. Let me know if you want a copy of that as well.

Happy New Year,

Christian :-)
02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

FGN59

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2020, 08:33:59 »
Hello Christian

I could be interested in one of your original TTS, as the one on my car has unusual characteristics, which I don’t understand:

The car is a 4-speed manual 280SL from late 1968, US model; the TTS bears some of the expected marks: ‘3.03’ for March 2003, ‘35°c +/-3°c’, ‘12V’, ‘120°C.
However there are some which seem a bit unusual: ‘40W’, ‘20°C 5sec’, and ’36/2/9’ right under ‘120°C’.

As you seem to know more about this part than I do, do you have any idea why it is so?

François
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

Berggreen

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2020, 19:37:34 »
Hello Christian

I could be interested in one of your original TTS, as the one on my car has unusual characteristics, which I don’t understand:

The car is a 4-speed manual 280SL from late 1968, US model; the TTS bears some of the expected marks: ‘3.03’ for March 2003, ‘35°c +/-3°c’, ‘12V’, ‘120°C.
However there are some which seem a bit unusual: ‘40W’, ‘20°C 5sec’, and ’36/2/9’ right under ‘120°C’.

As you seem to know more about this part than I do, do you have any idea why it is so?

François

Hello François

Yes, the last un-usual markings are indeed un-usual. Normally, a VDO 36/2/9 TTS has the markings 3W and -20°C 9.5sec. Are you sure there is not a "-" in front of the 20°C?

The two new TTS I have are actually 36/2/13's, but they are almost identical to the 36/2/9, except that they have 35°C +/- 4°C instead of +/- 3°C, as well as 40W instead of 3W, like your "odd" 36/2/9.

In any case, I don't think the differences matter. The Bosch also has a switch power of 40W and it works fine with the cold start relay: http://www.bosch-classic.com/en/internet/bosch_classic/produkte/motor_1/thermozeitschalter/thermozeitschalter___mit_teaser_1.html#

What is wrong with the TTS you have?

Which w113 do you have? There are several different generations of cold start systems on the 230-250-280SL.

Cheers,

Christian


02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

FGN59

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2020, 22:03:24 »
Hi Christian,

Thanks for the quick response and support!

Quickly (sort of):
- I am new to the forum and to W113 cars (but with some experience of old cars and mechanical things)
- 2 months ago I bought a late 1968 280SL US model, reimported from California to Europe about 15 years ago
- the car runs well (I drove it for about 1.000km from Paris to Provence - on smaller roads, taking my time- without any problem and with immense joy
- the car exhibits all the symptoms of a reasonably well tuned engine (temperature, oil pressure, idle regime, absence of smoke or odor at any regime and in any color, acceleration, sound) except cold starts, which are sub-optimal (when I got it, the car started from cold, but only after 10-15 secs of continuous cranking)
- after reading and rereading all possible chapters of the Technical Manual and as many relevant posts as I could find (thanks to all contributors!!!), I investigated and checked everything I could (fuel supply, CSV and CSS relays, TTS, CSV, CSS, wiring harness / electrical connexions)
- there were some small things to be fixed, which I fixed (deteriorated o-ring in CSV solenoid which I replaced), inverted connexions to TTS (G wire to W terminal and W wire to G terminal), and I am really satisfied now that every single component in the cold start mechanism is working as it should; the CSV fires and sprays when it should, the CSS moves the injection pump rack also, the WRD injects air and keeps the injection pump in 'choke' mode until the engine is warm, etc. (as you will see on the pics, I damaged one of the connexions on the TTS while removing it, but I put it back together and verified that it does work according to specs, both in a warm water pan and on the car - not as pretty, but functional...)
- since I fixed the 2 small faults, cold start has improved, but is still not as I would expect from a MB product; sometimes it is almost (but not quite) instantaneous (2-3 secs), sometimes more like 10 secs
- having looked at the spark plugs (the car is equipped with a Dutch(!) 123 solid state ignition), some of which show dark residue build up, I now suspect that perhaps some of the injectors are not spraying as they should, which I will investigate next.

But I also wonder about the somewhat 'strange' TTS on the car (see pictures attached); it is showing '20°C 5 sec', which seems out of range from what I have seen on the forum and on vendors' sites, but I don't understand what would be the reason for this. Could it be that the TTS is adapted to a (really) warm climate, heating up really quickly so that the cold start procedure is shorter and the engine does not flood in warm weather? In which case this is not ideal where I live (we currently have -1°C in the morning, and winter is just starting). But I have not read anything about this anywhere...

A penny (or more ?) for your thoughts? Jokes aside, any idea on the subject would be helpful, if possible... Thank you!

François
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

Berggreen

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2020, 22:36:17 »
Hi Christian,

Thanks for the quick response and support!

Quickly (sort of):
- I am new to the forum and to W113 cars (but with some experience of old cars and mechanical things)
- 2 months ago I bought a late 1968 280SL US model, reimported from California to Europe about 15 years ago
- the car runs well (I drove it for about 1.000km from Paris to Provence - on smaller roads, taking my time- without any problem and with immense joy
- the car exhibits all the symptoms of a reasonably well tuned engine (temperature, oil pressure, idle regime, absence of smoke or odor at any regime and in any color, acceleration, sound) except cold starts, which are sub-optimal (when I got it, the car started from cold, but only after 10-15 secs of continuous cranking)
- after reading and rereading all possible chapters of the Technical Manual and as many relevant posts as I could find (thanks to all contributors!!!), I investigated and checked everything I could (fuel supply, CSV and CSS relays, TTS, CSV, CSS, wiring harness / electrical connexions)
- there were some small things to be fixed, which I fixed (deteriorated o-ring in CSV solenoid which I replaced), inverted connexions to TTS (G wire to W terminal and W wire to G terminal), and I am really satisfied now that every single component in the cold start mechanism is working as it should; the CSV fires and sprays when it should, the CSS moves the injection pump rack also, the WRD injects air and keeps the injection pump in 'choke' mode until the engine is warm, etc. (as you will see on the pics, I damaged one of the connexions on the TTS while removing it, but I put it back together and verified that it does work according to specs, both in a warm water pan and on the car - not as pretty, but functional...)
- since I fixed the 2 small faults, cold start has improved, but is still not as I would expect from a MB product; sometimes it is almost (but not quite) instantaneous (2-3 secs), sometimes more like 10 secs
- having looked at the spark plugs (the car is equipped with a Dutch(!) 123 solid state ignition), some of which show dark residue build up, I now suspect that perhaps some of the injectors are not spraying as they should, which I will investigate next.

But I also wonder about the somewhat 'strange' TTS on the car (see pictures attached); it is showing '20°C 5 sec', which seems out of range from what I have seen on the forum and on vendors' sites, but I don't understand what would be the reason for this. Could it be that the TTS is adapted to a (really) warm climate, heating up really quickly so that the cold start procedure is shorter and the engine does not flood in warm weather? In which case this is not ideal where I live (we currently have -1°C in the morning, and winter is just starting). But I have not read anything about this anywhere...

A penny (or more ?) for your thoughts? Jokes aside, any idea on the subject would be helpful, if possible... Thank you!

François

Hi François

I suspect that you TTS is actually normal specs, but just that the minus “-“ and a “9.” have been grinded away or just failed being fully stamped into the TTS during production.

However, if the wires have been swapped, the TTS may have been damaged, as it will heat up a lot, if this is done.

But on the other hand, if you have tested it both in warm water and installed, ai guess it should be ok.. But maybe it is not functioning all times due to internal damage?

I would try to install a volt meter on the CSV and check when you start from cold how long time current is sent to the CSV. If you don’t want to have a lot of fuel sprayed into the engine, you can remove the fuse for the fuel pump. Take the wire off the CSV and connect to plus on the volt meter and the frame to minus. Also, remove the connection between the distributor and the coil. Then crank the start key and check if you get current to the CSV and how much and how long. Relate to the engine temperature. If you have -1C at the moment and the car is also this temperature you should get 10-12V for at least 4-5 sec, maybe more. Try several times and maybe wait for some hours and try again to check if you get reliable and the same response.

If all checks out fine, I would aim at the injection if you actually get a uniform spray at all cylinders.

Hope this helps! :-)

Cheers,

Christian
02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

ja17

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2020, 22:40:32 »
Yes, your system should have a TTS witch activates the cold start valve at 35 C and below. Only the early 230SLs (version II) used a different range and it was 45 C.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

FGN59

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2020, 17:32:32 »
Hello Christian and Joe,

Who said old cars are like the other half of the human race, unpredictable, sometimes annoying, but immensely desirable and ultimately irreplaceable? Or maybe it is the other way around: desirable and irreplaceable, but also unpredictable and sometimes annoying?

Anyway, I tried a variation on Christian's suggestion this morning, ie hooking a test lamp (rather than a volt meter) to the CSV, removing the fuse for the fuel pump and the high voltage wire from the coil to the distributor, and cranking the engine during a cold start. I've done this several times already, in the course of my previous cold start investigations, albeit without the fuel pump fuse removal part. I reasoned that cutting the fuel pump off during the TTS/CSV test might give me new information (even if partial and imperfect) on the status of the injectors (not flooding the cylinders during the dry run test and seeing how the engine started during the actual start after).

The test lamp lit up for approximately 7-8 secs during the dry run (outside temperature was around 5-6°C), meaning the CSV was receiving current for the same amount of time. This confirms my previous tests and conclusion, that the relay and TTS are working more or less as they should (more about the TTS later).

After taking 5mns to put the fuel pump back on line and the high voltage wire in place (coil to distributor), I cranked the engine again for a 'live' cold start (I had left the test lamp in place). This time the engine started literally instantaneously, like in a dream, while the lamp lit up (so TTS and CSV were activated). I then took the car for a short drive around until it had reached its normal working temperature. So I got to enjoy the desirable and irreplaceable parts once again, justifying the small irritations...

All in all, a perfect cold start, after 'dry cranking' for a few seconds (probably not completely dry, I imagine, as there must be some residual pressure in the fuel system, even after a 24hr rest since the last run yesterday?).

This afternoon, after the car had rested for about 3 hours and largely cooled down, I tried to restart it. Same cold start woes as before: about 5-7secs of continuous cranking until the engine finally caught, then normal warm up routine (elevated RPMs, WRD sucking air, then gradually returning to normal idle a the engine gets warmer; this part leads me to believe the WRD is working right too).

Unpredictable? Well, maybe not. After all, except for this morning, the cold start is consistently difficult, yet never impossible. I must not be doing the right thing, that's all (isn't this always the case?).

However, I don't know what to think, and what more to do (isn't this always the case too?). Not ready to give up, but at a loss for the moment...
I have, I believe, explored, tested and eliminated every conceivable malfunction of the cold start system (fuel supply, TTS, CSV, CSS, relays, wiring, fuses), concluding that everything is working as it should. I'm hitting a wall, maybe for lack of knowledge about the injection pump and injectors?

Somebody told me that if the WRD is sucking air forcefully (as mine is), then it is working (ie also sliding the rack in the injection pump). I believe that hearing higher revs (and seeing the RPM counter move up to about 1100) during warmup, followed by a gradual return to normal regime means the WRD is indeed working as it should. Is this purely logical reasoning correct?

I have also been told that if the CSS is activated and working (which it is, as I have tested too), then the injection pump 'choke' mode is activated on cold start. However, I don't know how to test that effectively?

Finally, Christian, could you explain what the mark 36/2/9 (or 36/2/13) on the TTS means? And do you think, from the info I gave here above, that the specs of the TTS on my car are correct for the usage?

With many thanks,

François
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

ja17

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2020, 18:24:04 »
Flooding can cause difficult starts also. Try disconnecting each starting aid (one at a time) during your cold starting and see if the problem gets worse or improves.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
1969 Dark Olive 280SL
2002 ML55 AMG (tow vehicle)
2002 SLK32 AMG (350 hp)
1982 300TD Wagon turbo 4spd.
1963 404 Mercedes Unimog (Swedish Army)
1989 flu419 Mercedes Unimog (US Army)
1998 E430
1974 450SLC Rally
1965 220SE Finback

Berggreen

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2020, 18:25:52 »
Hi François

Great report in your latest. :)

One central question: Do you press the gas pendal, when making a "half-cold" start?

If you look in the operation manual for the 280SL, it actually states that you have to press the gas pedal to the floor, when doing a warm or "half-warm" start. Otherwise, you have to crank for a longer period to start the engine. Do you know about this?

If I don't press the gas pedal on my 280SL aut. with a VDO TTS during a "half-warm" start, thus after standing for some hours, I also have(/had - see below) to crack the 5-7 sec. you experience. This is indeed irritating, and 280SL owners also complained about this "warm"-start issue back in those days the 280SL was new. The solution Mercedes offered back then, and which can be found as an optional upgrade in the service handbook (see attached), is to mount a 1s switch, which overrules the TTS and ALWAYS, no matter the engine temperature, will give a 1s burst of fuel with the CSV. The 230SL's actually had this 1s switch installed as standard, but not on the 280SLs.

I have installed this 1s switch in my aut. 280SL, which has a VDO TTS installed. However, on my manual 280SL which has the Bosch TTS installed, I don't need it, as the Bosch TTS already has this 1s CSV burst above 35C implemented in its electronics. Actually, before I changed to the Bosch on the manual 280SL, it already had the 1s switch installed, and I simply moved it to the aut. 280SL, when I installed the Bosch TTS. :)

So today, I have instant start on both my 280SL's at these otherwise difficult "half-warm" starts.

The 36/2/9 or 36/2/13 do not have any meaning as such, and are just VDO model numbers. There is a small differences between a /9 and /13 TTS, but I don't think it is important, and both can be used in a Pagoda. The most important spec is when the TTS opens, and this has to be 35C and then the 9.5s opening at -20C. The rest of the specs, I don't think is important as long as they are similar.

But, if you cannot get the 1s switch, and want to get rid of the "warm"-start issue, I recommend that you change to the Bosch TTS, because it already has the 1s above 35C burst included in its electronics. The VDO is purely thermo-mechanical and has no electronics to do this, and you therefore have to add the 1s switch instead. However, I think you can get the 1s switch, and I have seen some on Ebay from time to time, and maybe you can actually still buy them new - I think Bosch made/make them. I was so lucky that could just move my 1s switch between my two 280SLs, but maybe somebody else here knows more where to buy them, if you want to stay original and not change the TTS to the Bosch.

Hope this helps! :)

Cheers,

Christian
02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

Berggreen

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2020, 18:39:40 »
Flooding can cause difficult starts also. Try disconnecting each starting aid (one at a time) during your cold starting and see if the problem gets worse or improves.

Yes, true Joe, to much fuel can also cause problems.

Actually, if the engine is set up to run a little too rich, you can register a slight difficulty, when doing a really hot start, with the 1s switch installed giving the extra 1s burst with the CSV on top of the normal fuel supply.

So important to tune the engine correctly, when installing the 1s switch or using the Bosch TTS.

Cheers,

Christian
02/1971 MB 280SL (aut.) - olive green 291H
11/1970 MB 280SL (man.) - silver 180G
12/1977 MB 350SE (aut.) - deep green 825H
03/1969 Volvo 1800S (man.) - dark green 94

FGN59

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2020, 18:49:50 »
Thank you both. It feels really good to have help from friendly people who share the same interests!

I will try both Joe's (remove cold start aids one after another) and Christian's (press pedal for half warm starts) suggestions on Sunday (tomorrow I have to go to a funeral  :-(

Have a great week end.

François
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁

Mpgeslak

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2020, 21:06:36 »
Thanks for the advice, much appreciated.  I have reached out to Colin Ferns in London to deal with the oil in the combustion chamber as this is beyond my skill level.  Will probably be a couple of months before they can get to it. 

Thanks again to everyone for all the great assistance, being a newbie all the information is incredibly valuable.
1967 250SL

FGN59

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Re: Cold Starting Valve
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2020, 17:52:08 »
Hi everybody,

Time went by, occupied by lots of New Year celebrations and visits; I managed to work only a little on the car here and there, and couldn't find the time to report until today. BUT... my cold start problem is solved, at last.

To quote Sherlock Holmes: once you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Having checked and double checked every possible source of failure or non performance of the cold start system, except the cold start valve itself (which I thought I had seen expectorate some fuel early in my verification process, but didn't really check on thoroughly), I went back to it, and found that it didn't work as well as I thought it did. The nozzles were clogged, and only dripped a little fuel, but no spray.

To restore this function, I pulled the nozzle tube out of the cold start valve (tip given by Dr. Benz in another thread, with many thanks), let it soak overnight in carburettor cleaner fluid, put it in an ultrasound cleaner, then heated it slowly (and not too hot) on a bunsen burner, let it cool, put it back in the ultrasound cleaner, cycled several times through this (heat, cool, ultrasound), checking each time on the flow through the nozzles with compressed air. The nozzles eventually came clean, and voilà, the car starts beautifully now.

So in the end I was led, little by little, to perform a complete exploration of this amazing system, resulting at last in restoration of its nominal performance, together with a much better understanding of its makeup and of the role played by its different parts (CSV, TTS, CSS, WRD, enrichment rack on the FIP, fuel delivery, wiring harness, fuse box). I was thus able to correct the wiring for the TTS (G and W wires at TTS end had been inverted when the engine was reinstalled after renovation), identify and correct the absence of the internal o-ring between the CSV solenoid and the CSV itself (destroyed by age and most probably largely responsible for the clogging of the CSV nozzles), and verify that my TTS is working according to specs. I went through this process slowly and clumsily, but it was definitely worth it, for the result obtained and the knowledge gained.

Many thanks again to all who helped, particularly Christian (Berggreen), Joe (ja17), and Dr. Benz, to all those who, collectively and individually wrote the various articles in the Technical Manual, and, last but not least, to Mpgeslak, whose thread I hijacked without even realising it!

The renovation of the window mechanisms awaits now...

Cheers to all, enjoy a good start for the year, as I am.

François
« Last Edit: February 05, 2020, 06:43:08 by FGN59 »
François

1994 Toyota Land Cruiser SW HDJ80 4.2L diesel
sold:
1969 280SL US specs, 4-speed manual, beige-grey (726H), parchment leather
1962 Jaguar MK2 3.8L (4.2L XJ6 engine), black, tan leather interior
1968 Peugeot 204 roadster, white, black interior
1955 Massey Ferguson TEF20 diesel tractor 😁