Water fittings for head cooling

[Hermosa]

I'm trying to find replacements for the fittings on the cylinder head that connect the return lines on the left side of the engine.  (Photo attached)  I think the old part numbers are 130-203-0036 for the one on the left, and 130-200-0119 for the one on the right.  SLS seems to have them for for around 249 Euros.  I'm hoping to find them for a more reasonable price.  Any suggestions?

[Aaron h]

The 130-203-00-36 is still available from Mercedes.  It wholesales for $95 and retails for $119.  In Europe it retails for 72 Euros.

The same applies for the 130-200-01-19.  Still available from Mercedes, wholesales for $138, and retails for $190. 

I don't know who this SLS place is, but they seem to be quite a rip off.  Marking up retail pricing should somehow be governed or capped at a certain percentage, if not then made illegal altogether.  People are so damned greedy. 


Essentially, go to your local dealership or online dealer and order them.  At most you should pay no more than $309 for both pieces.  If you're charged more than that then go to another dealership that doesn't inflate the retail price. 

[Hermosa]

Thanks Aaron.  I will try to go that route.  Everything else has been simply wheel spinning.
The aggravating part is that 119 is being offered in Japan for $51 and I need 2.  (One for
the SE and one for the SL).  No shipping cost.  Ciao.

[Pawel66]

Is this what you, gentlemen, talk about?
https://www.niemoeller.de/en/w113/w113/B044/207/d20061-connector

[Aaron h]

Well, I guess just buy the ones from Japan and the one Pawel found for you on Niemoller's website.  You can't go wrong either way!

[Hermosa]

Thanks, Pawel!  The 1302030036 (D20061) is a way better price, than anyone else has.
So, I will order 2 of those, provided the shipping is reasonable.  I'll look at the 1302000119
to see how much Niemoller charges for that.   Amazing how prices are all over the place.
Ciao.

[Hermosa]

Greetings Aaron.  The Japanese connection is either not real or there is an issue
with their web-site.  I have now tried 4 times.  No luck.  I need to stop, because
I have had identity theft and it's ugly.  I was on the verge of asking you for the
connection you have, but then Pawel surfaced.  So, I will try Niemoller for both
parts.  Later.  BTW.  These are a good thing to replace, even if they appear to be
"perfect".  The head on the inside on the SE is so clean it is difficult to believe it's
49 years old.  However, upon inspection, both were pitted and the ring at the top
of both has been eaten away.

[Pawel66]

It feels nice to help.

Perhaps there has been some misunderstanding because on the SLS site I see this:  https://www.sls-hh-shop.de/main/en/50-cooling-system-50cooling-system-280sl-c-3_2338_81

It is EUR 45, more expensive, but not over 200. The elbow is 120, but the simple fitting is less.

Anyway, ask Niemoeller via e-mail, they have good technical advise, for the other fitting.

[Aaron h]

Oh I always renew these when rebuilding a cylinder head or whole engine.  The hardest part is getting them out.  Sometimes I have to cut them out or break them out.  Thankfully, they're usually so corroded that they're easy to break!  Glad you fellas found some other vendors to search out.  I hope the Japanese identity theft thing ends well for you.  This happened to me about a month ago, too! 

[Hermosa]

Thank you Pawel.  Exchange of ideas is always one of the main benefits.  You are
correct.  SLS has 1032000119 for the price you posted.  I was looking at the wrong
line (John Marshall).  I haven't found anyone yet, who can match the Miemoller price.
If shipping is reasonable, I will order from them, although I have a message into my
Dako contact to see if she will match.  I doubt it.  Ciao.

[Hermosa]

Hello Aaron.  Both of my units were barely tight.  That's why I had a streak going down
the side of the head.  If memory serves correct, a 36mm socket is the perfect fit to
remove.  It took a week, but I sourced some copper washers exactly the same as the
originals, which were steel (go figure).  I have a press and will try to "flatten" the copper
to 1mm, but the original thickness will work.  It would just be nice to get another turn in
the thread.  Although, there is a machine shop around the corner that has done tons of
free work for me and they have the big presses.  Some tape and sealant is going in to
prevent the obvious leak trap. 
If anyone needs, I can send some copper washers.  I bought them by the bag.  Ciao.

[wwheeler]

In regards to sealing the threads, I always use this:
 https://www.amazon.com/Permatex-56521-Performance-Thread-Sealant/dp/B000FW7VHI/ref=pd_sbs_263_t_1/132-5780018-9819736?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B000FW7VHI&pd_rd_r=b0b5e1ec-83c6-49b6-afac-b1f74a124a9e&pd_rd_w=p3ku6&pd_rd_wg=QscZL&pf_rd_p=5cfcfe89-300f-47d2-b1ad-a4e27203a02a&pf_rd_r=6G7QKDFKAVGDXJR2MHQD&psc=1&refRID=6G7QKDFKAVGDXJR2MHQD

For threads that have the potential to leak. Easy to apply and firms up to create a good seal. It does not harden so that the part can be removed later. Also acts as a anti seize, in some regard, as it coats the threads. I avoid Teflon tape when I can because of the possibility of Teflon "strings" getting loose in the engine or components. Yes, those cooling fittings are a pain!

[Hermosa]

Thanks Wallace.  I believe I have exactly that Permatex from other jobs. 
I agree with your observation about the tape.  When the parts arrive, I
will "dry" thread them to see how much play there is.  Conversely, the original
lasted nearly 50 years, so this stuff will outlast me.  The larger piece may
be brass.  Which is way better than steel, for this application.  Also, the
threads inside the head are super clean.  I guess the guys at the factory
knew what they were doing, not over tightening steel against aluminum.
Ciao.

[Aaron h]

They used steel sealing washers in this location for two reasons.....to prevent galvonic corrosion between the aluminum head, steel fitting, and the ethylene glycol, and because the steel was able to hold tight the fitting to the head throughout the massive temperature changes and vibrations from an engine running 4,000-6,000 RPM.  The copper will obviously work ok, but can vibrate loose or corrode to the point of leaking.  Only, if you want to use copper then try to change the copper washer every two years when you change your coolant.  Follow Wallace's advice about sealing.  Years ago I tried copper washers, too, and it leaked.  I ended up having to put sealant on the threads and on the copper sealing washer.  I thought maybe my mating surfaces weren't true, or that my threads were worn, but that wasn't the case. 

[Hermosa]

That's interesting.  I was under the impression that it was the opposite.  Both fittings
are completely pitted from corrosion.  Outside, inside and the the face threading into
the head.  In the last pic, you can see the corona is virtually gone.  Of course, this took
50 years.  I am planning to liberally Permatex both sides of the washer and the threads.
I would think the softer copper would be a superior form of seal, since it is more pliable
and forms to the steel.  Maybe not.  Changing these very 2 years is no object.  Neither
fitting can with-stand the torque of a 36mm socket.  So, I will lightly tighten, as the gang
at the factory did.  Then, I can  always tighten further.  Amazingly, neither washer shows
any sign of wear or deterioration (pitting).  And, I know for sure that the coolant mixture
leaked all over them.  Ciao.

[wwheeler]

The type of coolant will also have a big effect on corrosion over the years. Use the MB stuff or Zerex G05 and change regularly. They do make Ph strips that you can use to test the Ph and the coolant freeze level from time to time. Good coolant condition is a must for these engines with all of the aluminum. Corrosion in the coolant system is a silent killer and is usually hidden from sight like body rust.

[Hermosa]

Thanks Wallace.  When I removed the fittings, the inside of the head was so clean,
I was amazed.  No rust, no flakes, no debris.  Not even at the bottom.  Mine is a
short-block and someone must have gone through the head, simultaneously.   
I use both the Zerex and the MB stuff, depending on sales events and things like
The Turkey Rod Run, with its gazillion vendors.   NAPA just had the Zerex for $13!!
I also have a jar full of the strips.  Although being in Florida, I simply drain every
car, every 2 years.  60% coolant, 40% distilled. 

[johnk]

Oh I always renew these when rebuilding a cylinder head or whole engine.  The hardest part is getting them out.  Sometimes I have to cut them out or break them out.  Thankfully, they're usually so corroded that they're easy to break!  Glad you fellas found some other vendors to search out.  I hope the Japanese identity theft thing ends well for you.  This happened to me about a month ago, too!

Aaron
How did you go about breaking or cutting them out?  I would like to replace mine with plates ones but I too cant get them out.
Thanks
John

[Aaron h]

Aaron
How did you go about breaking or cutting them out?  I would like to replace mine with plates ones but I too cant get them out.
Thanks
John

John, if after trying to break loose with heat and moderate torque it doesn't come loose, then that's when I break it out.  Bear in mind that if you use too much torque to loosen the aluminum threads in the head will literally come out with the fitting.  That's why I sometimes break them out.  When I do this, I cut the fitting off almost flush with the head.  I then use an angle grinder to further thin the hexagonal part, all while being careful not to let the grinder scratch the cylinder head.  At this point I use a large chisel and hammer to bend all of the remaining material inward toward the hollow part where coolant would flow.  By this time the combination of bending the fitting and the vibrations from the striking will allow the surface tension to let loose, and the fitting will usually break free enough from the corroded threads to screw out.  If not, then I continue striking the fitting with the chisel until a small piece breaks off of the fitting.  I'll then do the same 180 degrees from the first break.  It's a somewhat delicate procedure because we risk marring the mating surface of the sealing washer, but if enough caution is used that won't happen.  And use plenty of heat from a flame in the process.  Concentrate the heat to the area of the cylinder head around the fitting, since we want expansion away from the fitting.  If you put heat on the fitting it'll expand in the threaded hole and make it even tighter in the hole.  It'w not often I have to do this, but it's happened several times over the years.  The usually break loose with head and a long breaker bar.  I suppose one could use an air powered impact, but again you risk taking the threads out of the head with the fitting. 

[johnk]

Thanks Aaron. Sounds like this should only be done when the head is off the car so as to not take the chance of leaving debris in the cooling chambers of the head?  Unfortunately my head is back on and I am ready to put the engine back in the car from underneath. 

[MikeSimon]

Minor point: Some of the metal washers/seals on the car changed from previously copper to aluminum. I got a bunch of these from Mercedes Benz quite a while ago, when I replace components that used metal seals/washers.

[Hermosa]

Before trying any method, drench the area in some type of solvent.  Do this for
about 3 to 4 days.  Then try a socket.  I believe 36mm is the correct size.  Harbor
Freight carries a large/oversize socket set.  I can check tomorrow, if you wish.
Obviously, the socket has 6 points of engaging the fitting.  The hammer/chisel
method only has 1.  Pretty scary to me.  If all else fails, use an acid.  It will not
damage the head, but you cannot let it sit for some extended period.  As Aaron
pointed out, applying heat to the head should substantially expand the aluminum.
Then try the socket again.  Good luck.

[Hermosa]

It's not so much the head, but the block, that can become an issue.  The cooling
passages there are surprisingly small and narrow (old technology).  You don't
want crap getting in there.  The best you can do is tilt the engine some 45 degrees,
when attempting to remove the fittings.  Unless you can place the unit on its side.
There is a plug on the passenger side, to drain the coolant.  You can turn a garden
hose on this, for several minutes.  It should flush everything.  Watch what exits. 
You can even use a pressure washer, if the garden hose is weak. 

[Aaron h]

Well, I've done this with and without the head on the car.   If the head is on the car just stuff a rag in the passage way.....but not while heating.  Only while breaking the fitting out.  Any metal pieces will be caught in the rag. 

Mike, I, too, noticed this change from copper to aluminum washers, and there are some places that aluminum just won't work due to how soft they are and how much torque is needed.   In these areas I simply put another copper washer in place.  I guess Mercedes did this to save some pennies?  I can't imagine there being any other reasons along metallurgical lines.  Have you any thoughts on this? 

[johnk]

The one I am having the The biggest problem with has the tube sticking out of it so a socket won’t work. I pick up a socket today at Harbor freight to try on the other one.

Thanks gents