Starting to shop around

[Macfly]

Hi all,

I have been bitten by the Pagoda bug. Actually this occurred in college when my father bought one where I was going to school and I had the pleasure of taking care of it for my final semester. Needless to say, I was looking good.

Since then I have owned several classic American cars and have done some restoration. I do not want to restore a SL but would love to have a driver quality car with 4 speed and AC as I live in Miami. I have a freshly restored 64 Corvette to sell before buying, so I am just now getting re-acquainted with these. Saw a great video on buying tips from Cascadia Classic which taught me a ton of tips, but there is so much more I'm sure.

One thing I am interested to hear is how important original paint color is for this community. I've seen a few already that have been changed. In the Corvette world this is also common but is a big hit on value. I'm not interested in creating a show car, just having something fun to drive, has the looks and can be maintained under a shade tree.

I have heard parts are pretty available, but are there certain items to look out for as being hard to find?

Please open the flood gates and tell me your horror stories!

Thanks,
Greg

[jeffc280sl]

hi greg,

welcome to the group.  "not interested in creating a show car, just having something fun to drive, has the looks and can be maintained under a shade tree" describes a lot of our wishes.

as you suggest color change is a consideration.  originality has a way of slipping away because its harder to maintain.  for instance you live in miami and need a/c.  the old r-12 freon system with original piston compression was a poor system and is a good example.  much better to use a modern rotary compressor with 134a freon. 

if its not a/c that causes you to stray from original it could be any number of other reasons and desired "upgrades".   the emissions and ignition system on later models are difficult to maintain.  these sort of get at your desire for fun and easy driving.

i'm sure you had these considerations when restoring your vette.

i suggest you spend some time thinking about the originality concept. 

[MikeSimon]

One of the issues with non-original color on a Pagoda is, there are a few areas which are difficult to paint  by Earl Scheib, for example. Like the instrument panel and inside the engine compartment. The original color may show and that is a tad odd.

[lowpad]

Greg,

Might be good to look at the 113s that have gone through BringaTrailer over the past couple of years (there have been many).  Prices are a bit all over the map, but the photos and commentary (well, most of the commentary ...) are useful regarding driver vs. show quality.  There have been some good driver-level cars on there lately. 

Lowell

[JoeTroise]

Color change does affect value but really, no one is as fussy as are vintage Corvette owners about every little thing (just kidding, but you know what I mean) .  So my opinion as an appraiser and not an SL "expert"-- is that "it depends" on a) what the color change was---from what to what, and b) how well everything was done.

Another complication is the "grade" or quality of the car. Obviously, a "driver" SL with lots of other needs isn't going to suffer as much with a color change, because it probably needs a complete restoration anyway.

An example--I recently saw a black car that used to be white. It wasn't a good job, and it was also a regrettable switch of colors--white would have been much preferred. So every chip, every missed spot on the repaint shows up immediately. On top of all its other problems, that particular SL would be lucky to pull $40K.

The statement made here that "values are all over the place" is really true, which makes it difficult for the newbie to know what to pay. It really depends on what level of originality, correctness and condition you want.

I saw an absolutely beautifully restored Pagoda sell for $150,000 not too long ago--it was perfect down to the decals on the electrical relays. Even the grommet that holds the windshield washer bag was NOT aluminum (oh, no!)--it was the correct metal color for that car, that year.

So yeah, there's "restored" and then there's RESTORED.  That's the difference you see in values.

It might be a good time for you to buy. Values for Pagodas have definitely slacked off since early 2017. Even the most magnificent ones haven't yet regained the levels they had 2-3 years ago.   You'll pay more for a manual transmission though, especially one with AC. When I worked for Mercedes, I bought a new one, 1971, green w/ tan interior, manual transmission and AC. To me, that's the best possible combination of everything for a Pagoda.

[Rothko]

I wouldn't consider air conditioning a "must have".  I live just up the way from you, and I never drive the car with the soft top up (or hardtop on).  This car is meant to be driven with the soft top down, and you'll have plenty of opportunities in Miami to do so.  So you won't be running the air as much as you would think.

It does get very hot in the summer, I will concede, but I find I just take the car out either early in the morning or in the evening during the summertime.

[JoeTroise]

good point actually. The original factory AC from Benz in those days wasn't very good anyway.

[Benz280]

Hello Greg,
these is much to look for when on a mission for a good 113.
As previously mentioned, color changes are out there.. but unless done right it may hamper a future sale.
A good resource is Motoring Investments, Brian has created this pictorial of items to be on the look out for
http://historic.motoringinvestments.com/MainPage.htm

I looked for about a year before I came across a keeper, hard to believe it was only 40 miles from home.
Good luck     

[Macfly]

About the AC, I have owned here two roadsters. A 1980 MGB and my current 64 Corvette. Both black cars, but pretty uncomfortable in traffic when it’s 88 and humid. I actually keep the Corvette hardtop on as it has a black interior. I’m from New England so you would think the heat wouldn’t bother me but the traffic here makes it tough to get a breeze going.

I want this SL to be a driver. Not sure if I care about a color change but I would like it to not be “two-tone” with dash and engine bay a different color. I’m mostly focused on abuse from storage or use, and poorly done modifications that will hurt me down the road.

Thanks for all the good inputs. Keep them coming!

[Macfly]

I have a candidate to see but unfortunately I still need to sell my 64 Corvette. This car is on Hemmings and seems to have had a rough history but I must see it to validate my concerns. I also feel it may be a bit of a diamond in the rough. It’s a 69 4 speed with AC in Jensen Beach, FL.

Car does not pass the initial presentation test. It has poor photos and some incomplete assembly after a color change. However it was owned my a MB enthusiast and what I’m seeing could be explained or possibly easily repaired. I also think it’s not going anywhere soon due to the above and also price.

If you’ve looked at this ad I’d love to hear comments including “turn and run”.

[Jonny B]

If I got the right ad (pink Tbird in the background?). You are very correct about the quality of the photos, quite poor. Lots of things that should be looked at. Curious about the color change. The data plate under the hood indicates code 717 which is Papyrus white. So the car is resprayed to silver (most likely code 180) then why is the engine bay black?? The VIN indicates it would be classed as a 1970 but probably built in October 1969.

Granted they are not hiding the issues with the interior - tears/breaks in the seating surface.

Seems priced high, but really would need to see in person, or have someone close by take a look.

[Jordan]

Nice that it's a Euro 280SL.  Looks to be a good candidate for a rolling refurbishment.  Drive it as you slowly put it back to Euro specs and clean it up.

[Macfly]

I did not think it was a Euro model. Looks like US headlights...?

This is the one, with the t-bird in the background. Widow selling the collection and this is the last car remaining. Price is based on what they paid which I think is way too high. If the body is super solid I could be interested. Maybe going to see it.

She still drives it around so it’s at least a driver.

Came with no hardtop, right? Second color code is ——

[Jonny B]

Had to go back and look. Yes, it is a Euro car. Two things I can see - the "2" after the 10 in the second from the last line on the plate by the hood indicates a German delivery. Also there is one shot of the interior where you can see the storage pockets on the door. These are the hard pockets which were changed for US delivery after VIN 2980 of the 250 SL.

Correct about the "---" after the 717 in the paint codes, no hard top

[Jordan]

Had to go back and look. Yes, it is a Euro car. Two things I can see - the "2" after the 10 in the second from the last line on the plate by the hood indicates a German delivery. Also there is one shot of the interior where you can see the storage pockets on the door. These are the hard pockets which were changed for US delivery after VIN 2980 of the 250 SL.

Correct about the "---" after the 717 in the paint codes, no hard top

Yes, I saw the "2" as well and the door pockets.  Then I noticed it also says it right in the add (I always look at the pictures first).  Easy enough to change back; replace headlights, speedometer, centre cluster (unusual that was changed) and remove the side marker lights.  While it didn't originally come with a hard top doesn't mean it doesn't have one now.  A previous owner may have purchased one. 

Price does appear a bit high if it missing a hard top but maybe it is in rust free condition.

[Macfly]

Why would one want to change to the Euro configuration? I understand for restoration purposes but otherwise it seems to me to be a costly effort.

What do you mean about the center cluster? Is this the gauges next to speedometer?

[stickandrudderman]

What do you mean about the center cluster? Is this the gauges next to speedometer?

Euro gauges have the coolant temp displayed in °C whereas US gauges have the temp indicated in °F.

[jeffc280sl]

i think the euro version bumpers are much nicer looking.  while mine is a US delivery 280SL i had the holes in my bumpers filled before rechroming.  something about those bumperettes bugs me.  thats just me

[Jordan]

Why would one want to change to the Euro configuration? I understand for restoration purposes but otherwise it seems to me to be a costly effort.

You originally asked about original paint colour.  For someone that knows nothing about these cars and doesn't care, original colour means nothing.  Someone that does know about these cars will note that the headlights and gauges have been changed and that the marker lights have been added.  These are just considerably easier and less costly to change than bringing a car back to its original colour.  Keep in mind that the parts you replace can be resold to cover part of the cost of the replacements.

[Cees Klumper]

Why would one want to change to the Euro configuration? I understand for restoration purposes but otherwise it seems to me to be a costly effort.

Euro cars look better ...
(several onlookers: Hold my beer)

[Jordan]

Euro cars look better ...
(several onlookers: Hold my beer)

There's that too. 

[Macfly]

I’m fine with the look of the car as it is. I’m also ok with the paint color change as long as it was done well. But how these things affect value I do care about.

I would not bother attempting to bring this car back to Euro configuration as I’ve already learned the cost of the headlights alone puts this out as a waste of effort, unless somehow it enhances value. Given this car appears to be over priced already that pretty much sums up it won’t happen.

Now, as a car to enjoy, maintain and keep looking proper to the non-purist... that’s the angle I am coming from.

Is it a decent starting point for this approach at 45k?

[kampala]

Being a euro car adds some value to some of us.  Unless changed out, it would have a hotter Cam as well.

If you inspect this car, and it runs well, it’s really gonna be about rust.  If rust is not an issue, new leather seat covers are not difficult.   

There is  value in manual and there is value in euro even though it has been federalized.  Still might be a little high in today’s market.   

[Garry]

I agree that bringing it back to Euro should not be discounted.  The value added would be far greater than the cost of euro headlights, and the old lights sold to recover some of the cost, and if it is the hotter cam then that is a plus.


May come down to negotiating skills.  And No Rust.......

[Macfly]

I got to look at my first candidate this morning. As expected the car was less impressive in person, but also looks better than in the terrible pictures in the ad. The car came from Ohio and shows some poorly repaired rust. As a driver I think it would be a fun car to toy with, but nowhere near the price it is offered. This car will not sell anytime soon.

The hood numbers could not be found. It had some work done to it, and it showed. The fenders had some spot welds covered up due to rust repair but a camera beneath showed the rust is still there. Pop riveted repair behind front wheel showed the car was exposed to mid west winters at some point, unless there is another way for water to get in this area.

Trunk was a little rusty but looked like original metal. Car is a driver, and needs plenty of TLC but will grab attention along the way.

I am very pleased I am becoming educated on these cars... Thank for all the assistance!