New member with W111 250se Coupe saying hello

[austinado16]

Hello All!

New member here, but not new to the cars.  I own a '66 250SE Coupe with 4 on the floor and electric sliding sunroof.  DB268Blaugrün/Cognac.  I purchased it in San Francisco, in April '92.  It's an ongoing love affair, but the car is in pretty rough shape cosmetically and structurally.  It's always been very dependable, although not without quite a bit of wrench spinning at times.  Unfortunately life happened about 11yrs ago, and it, my 1970 Austin America, and my 1986 Kawasaki Ninja 600R got set aside and just in the last year-and-a-half, have they finally seen the light of day.  Other than tires and batteries, the America and Ninja survived storage unscathed, and still look like the day they were built.  The Coupe on the other hand, did not fair so well, and I have only myself to blame.

I finally built a 20x40 metal garage for them all to live in, and so now it's time to get back to the Coupe, get it road worthy, and then start picking away at the laundry list of cosmetic, structural, and lower priority mechanical issues.

I just started focusing on it about 2 months ago, and so far have rebuilt 3 sticking calipers (actually rebuilt 2, and replaced the right rear with a rebuilt unit from a rebuilder), and replaced the rear pads and rotors.  I'd replaced all the brake flex hoses about 11-12yrs ago, and they are still fine, so I've left them alone.   I had to replace the right rear caliper rather than rebuild it, because genius that I am, I swapped on a caliper from a '72 4.5 car back in May '92, when I swapped in the 4.5 car's rearend (to lower my rpm's on the freeway).  The Coupe had a sticking right rear caliper at that time, and thinking that the 4.5 caliper was the same, I left it on the axle during the install.  Oops....smaller piston, and it made the braking very weird during harder stops.  Anyway, the brakes are done.

I also rebuilt the electric fuel pump and did some other odds and ends, like replacing the wallowed out alternator pulley to cure the intermittent belt squeal, and replaced the radiator fan clutch.  The sunroof no longer worked after storage, and I found the motor was just a sweat rusted mess inside.  I was able to disassemble and clean up the motor, and get all of the sunroof pivot points working again, thanks to PB Blaster, and then Kroil.  So the sunroof is working again.  Prior to my purchasing the car, someone put a Becker Mexico stereo in it, cutting out the dash so that larger body radio would fit.....and they also cut out the kick panels below the dash, and put Alpine 5-1/4" speakers there.  Those were completely rotted after 11yrs of storage, so I found some period looking Blaupunkt XL's in Germany, and just installed them.

I'm currently working on rebuilding the heater/blower unit, and freeing up the fresh air flap out in the cowling in front of the windshield.  I got the cable for the flap freed up today (Kroil for the win!) and the heater/blower is mostly back together and I've test run the new (good used) fan motor and rotary switch (also good used).  If I have time tomorrow, I'll finish up the assembly, and then install it.

Once all this mechanical stuff is done, I've got half a hide from World Upholstery & Trim, and I want to re-upholster the door tops, rear quarter panel tops, and dash.   Plenty more to do after that, but it's a labor of love.

[hansr433]

Welcome to the group.  Your car does not seem too bad from the photos, and it is great that you are able to do a lot of work yourself.  My cabriolet had originally the same colour (Blaugruen 268H) but storage for 15 years in an office garage was not so kind to the paint.  Great that you kept the car in storage and did not sell it.  Paul Bracq created an absolute classic design in the W111 coupes and cabrios.

Hans
63 220SE Cabrio

[wwheeler]

Yes, welcome to the group. Even though this site is primarily for W113, there are many areas that are similar to the W111 and why we who have non-Pagoda cars, hang out here. I also have a '68 280SE coupe and have been here since 2008 or so. The admins for this group were kind enough to set aside the section for us W111 people to learn and contribute to this wonderful site. There are MANY resources here and the people on this site are also top notch. 

I can't tell you how valuable this site has been for learning about and maintaining my W111. Anyway the other thing I would encourage you to do is to sign up as a full member. The benefits are well worth the small cost. And since you work on your car yourself, you will quickly find that almost any question in regards to your W111 can be answered here.

Look forward to seeing more about your 250SE. BTW, that is a wonderful color combination! Mine is dark olive green and cognac.

[austinado16]

Thanks Hans and Wallace!

I don't know the history of this car, but it's a German model, and based on the white and blue 1980s CA license plate that was originally on it, I'm guessing it was shipped over to the states for quick and profitable sale at that time.  I must have been in horrible condition, and was given a very cheap, complete restoration, either prior to leaving Europe, or when it arrived in the San Francisco Bay Area (I purchased it from a private party, right in downtown SF).  It's been repainted at least twice, and appears to have been a light metallic green at some point.  The seats had been redone in cheap vinyl, and the carpets were also a very cheap material.  The original cognac door panels, quarter panels, and kick panes are still in place, as is the original wood...or at least what I think is probably original wood.  It isn't zebrano or macasar, and I've been told it might be rose wood.  The huge amounts of structural rust had been paneled over, bondo'd over, or in the case of the rocker panel ends (both front and rear) filled with expandable spray foam insulation, reshaped to look correct, and then the entire underside sprayed in a heavy layer of undercoating.  At the time of purchase, I'd only seen perfect versions, including my boss's 1 owner, W108 280SE, so I gave the car a quick look and test drive, handed over the $5k, and off I went.  I discovered how bad it was a few days later when I tried to put it onto the 2-post lift at work.  I was devastated.   

A week or 2 after purchase, the reason for the sale finally hit, when the engine died and couldn't be restarted.  The seller had warned that the car would only run about 30min, and no shops in the SF Bay area could figure out why (I actually drove it the 230mi from SF back home).   I found a solid plug of debris in the screen at the inlet to the electric fuel pump. The head gasket blew a few weeks later, and I found all the head bolts fairly loose, and a few weeks after that, a bearing in the transmission broke apart, allowing the main shaft to fall into the countershaft, and locked the transmission into 2 gears in the middle of the street.

If you look close in the photos you can see the missing paint on the truck.  The roof is 10 times worse.  You can also see the giant hole in panel just to the rear of the driver's door, and see how wavy the driver's door is.  It wasn't missing paint when I stored it, but I put it in one of those zip-up pouch style covers, and left it sitting under a metal carport.  My fault completely that it's now as bad as it is.

Once the heater project is complete, it will be back to daily driver status, and so the plan is; to just start enjoying the car again, drive it often, and start picking away at all the cosmetic and structural stuff.  I want it to be "really nice daily driver" rather than a rotisserie type job, because I actually want to drive it a lot.

Here's a shot of it right after purchase, alongside my boss's fantastic W108:

[Benz280]

Welcome to the group, have always loved the 111 coupes, many moons ago in fact had a 111 3.5 and to this day wonder why I sold.
Your looks great, drive it, keep it.

[austinado16]

Thank you!  I'm glad I found this site AND am allowed to join.

A twin to my car, and only a few hundred VIN digits from my car, sold on Bring-A-Trailer last year.  The seller posted 100+ photos of it and it really got my motivation up to get working on mine again.  I still look at his photos!

Prior to 2008/9 I drove it all the time and had just had another (better condition) cylinder head rebuilt and had installed it, in order to cure the huge puff of blue smoke that the engine put out upon start up (a guide had broken off flush with the head).  Literally parked the car one day, covered it and later bought a zippered pouch for it to be in, and *poof* 10 years went by before I saw it again.  Really sad.  But glad to be here, and glad to be making progress on it again.

[austinado16]

I was able to get the heater unit back into the car today, get the coolant hoses reconnected, top up the coolant, and have the car running again. I even got the indicator light in the blower switch knob working.  I still have to put the dash and center console area back together, but I'll pick away at that as I have time this week.  Nice to have the worst of it behind me.

[Aaron h]

Austin, W111 250se coupe` and cabriolets models weren't offered with the straight grained rosewood.  Only Macassar Ebony, Burled walnut, and straight grained walnut were used for the 250se models.  According to the appointments book, all Cognac interiors on a 250se had Macassar Ebony. (see picture)  However, it was possible for buyers to request a different species of wood when ordering the car.   So since you say it's not Ebony we can only assume that it has straight grained walnut.  Though, if someone swapped out the wood in the past there is no telling what it may be.  As far as Zebra wood goes, that species wasn't offered on Mercedes cars until 1973, so Zebra wood is out of the question........unless someone mistakenly actually put Zebra wood veneer on it when refinishing it.  Would you mind posting some pictures of the wood/dash?  Maybe we can see what you have. 

[austinado16]

Not even 24hrs in, and I'm already loving this forum!  Can't tell you how much I appreciate your knowledge and willingness to look something up and post a scan/photo of the actual info.

Below is a photo.  The gauge pod does have the dark striping of what I've always called zebrano, but it looks like I've been doing that in error.  I had a '67 Coupe (a guy followed me into a parking lot one day and offered it to me) for a few years and it was 100% original. It had the congnac interior and striped wood (macasar ebony).  But my flat dash area has never looked like that, although as you'll see, it's never had a clear coat on it.  I definitely want to return the car to it's original build, so I'd like to know what wood it has/had.  Thank you for the help!

I added a 2nd photo from the Madera Concepts website.  The rosewood is closest to what mine seems to look like, but maybe mine doesn't look as it should, because the clear is missing.

-Todd

[Aaron h]

Well, given that the original nitrocellulose lacquer has been removed from the wood, I have to assume that it was off of the car at one point, which makes me wonder if it was replaced with wood from another car.  The instrument cluster binnacle is definitely Macassar Ebony, albeit extremely faded and weathered.  The wood on the dash also looks to be ebony judging by the large opens in the grain.  Straight grained rose wood had very tight growth rings and a very tight grain.  What I'm seeing doesn't look like Rosewood. 

If the original purchaser of the car didn't specify otherwise when ordering the car, your car would have had Macassar Ebony when new.  The veneer on these early models is thick enough that the layer of sun faded wood can usually be sanded down enough to expose the original color of the veneer.  Old growth Ebony is impossible to come by these days, so definitely try to save the original veneer if possible.  The new ebony looks rather lifeless compared to old growth. 

Also, for originality's sake, your wood would have originally had a thick coating of nitrocellulose lacquer when new in which a little of the grain would have shown through.  When you have your wood refinished be certain to specify that you don't want a two part polyester resin finish.  The two part polyester resin finish makes the wood look like a piece of glass.  Granted, that's nice, but it's not right.  Then again, if you want your wood to look like a piece of glass then that will be up to you. 

[austinado16]

Thanks for this info.  I've been wondering about the finish and how it would have looked, as compared to how it will look "today" with different chemicals and styles/ages of veneer woods.  It's gonna be along time before I cross that bridge, so I appreciate your help!

[hansr433]

Todd, having just gone through a refinish of the dash wood on my car, I would think that a PO scored some wood pieces from another car and replaced what he could.  To me, your photo shows 2 different types of wood and I would agree with Aaron's assessment.  Also, unless you know what you are doing, leave the refinishing to an expert.  You might want to pick someone who refinishes furniture and knows how to French Polish.  That is a beautiful mid-sheen, organic looking looking way of finishing wood.

[hansr433]

I found this on Ebay, being advertised as "Rare Genuine Mercedes W111,220SE Coupe&Cabrio Mahogany Wood Center Console W/Mat".  The grain looks similar to yours, doesn't it?

[austinado16]

Yes, that does look like the dash wood, with those thin like horizontal flecks that look like tiny horizontal hairs in the grain.

100mi south of me is Madera Concepts http://www.maderaconcepts.com/ and I think they are considered ground zero for Mercedes-Benz and Jaguar wood restoration.  It comes a quite a cost though.  I think I was quoted $3,500-$4,000 to do all the wood, with the price dependent on the condition of the substrate wood.  Of course both of my windshield bows are broken at the corners, and the small curved corner section of the dash is in really bad shape from a water leak in that corner of the windshield.

Not that there aren't other people/places available to do this sort of veneer work...these guys are just who the majority of people and shops use.  I'm guessing even the Classics Center down in Irvine, CA uses them.

[hansr433]

Todd, you do not need to spend that kind of money.  There are many options, including replacement parts from Turkey.

[austinado16]

My concern with the stuff I see from Turkey (at least what's on ebay) is the quality since it has a non-wood substraight, how it fits as far as accuracy goes, does it have the holes where they really need to be (I have a sunroof and emergency flasher light, plus a larger body Becker Mexico radio), how does it really look in person (to fake/plastic-like), and how well will it hold up.  Not to mention, in the near month it would take to get it from Turkey, how damaged would it be, and if it were damaged, how would I handle that from the other side of the world, with someone who now has $2,800 of my dollars, and may or may not speak English (well), or care about customer service type issues.

Been looking at that option, as well as the sellers in Germany, and am not closed off to either, but will certainly consider all options when I'm able to spend that kind of money all at once.  Building the 20x40 garage and all the concrete work last summer really wiped me out financially, so it's going to be a while before I can drop a huge sum of money into the car all at once.

[austinado16]

Here's an example of a '66 Coupe that was special ordered in Germany, with electric sunroof, 4 on the floor, and non-Macassar wood:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-mercedes-benz-250se-2/

And the twin to my car:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-mercedes-benz-250se-coupe/

[wwheeler]

Not even 24hrs in, and I'm already loving this forum!  Can't tell you how much I appreciate your knowledge and willingness to look something up and post a scan/photo of the actual info.

You ain't seen nothin' yet!

[wwheeler]

As far as buying replacement wood for a W111 car, I would say that you WILL have to do fitting to make it right. No two cars are exactly alike. I have torn my dash down for a restore and every piece of wood was labeled with my chassis #. When they say these cars were "hand built", well kind of sort of. What they are talking about is mostly the interior. The wood and leather pieces were hand fitted to perfection before permanent installation. 

[austinado16]

That's really interesting about your wood being VIN labeled.  As in, your cars full VIN, or just the last 6?

I'm chomping at the bit to do more interior work.  I've got a half hide of Cognac leather to start using (as I've mentioned) and I received 5 carpet samples from World Upholstery & Trim.   I have to be patient and take small steps, but I'm happy to finally be making progress.  The info I'm getting from all of you is fantastic.  Been living under a rock with very little knowledge of how the cars originally looked.

[wjsvb ✝︎]

As for your leather, the original were shaved somewhat thinner to work in the dash and possibly on the door tops.  The forum should have more on this (get a full membership!) or check with your supplier or GAHH. 

[austinado16]

I will, thanks!

Below are the 3 nicer carpet samples that World Upholstery & Trim sent.  The speckled one is supposed to be the most correct, but I don't remember the carpet looking like that in the '67 all original Coupe that I had for a few years.  It seems like the carpet in that car had a very short knap and was more like a velour than actual carpet.

[Aaron h]

Here's an example of a '66 Coupe that was special ordered in Germany, with electric sunroof, 4 on the floor, and non-Macassar wood:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-mercedes-benz-250se-2/

And the twin to my car:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1966-mercedes-benz-250se-coupe/

The first one has "Mittel-Blau" interior.  All blue interiors in the 250se had straight grained walnut.  Regarding the second one, do you see how beautiful the Cognac goes with the Macassar Ebony now?  haha 

My own 250se coupe`, which is black over dark olive leather with Macassar ebony, is number 085969, so really close to yours, too!  Granted, all green interiors were supposed to have burled walnut wood, but when mine was ordered the buyers specifically requested Macassar Ebony, so that's why mine has the ebony with the dark olive.  I was fortunate enough to have spoken with the original owners wife before she died.  I remember her saying how much both she and her husband hated burled walnut.  Hence, their choice of wood. 

Regarding your carpeting, the early 250 models used a two toned wool carpeting, not velour.  That's why the you remember the other one you had having a much shorter knap.  The later velour had a higher knap.  As far as the speckles, that would be correct for a cognac interior.....that's what is meant by the "two tone" nomenclature.   Unfortunately, I don't think anyone offers the original short knap wool carpeting any longer, so the two tone velour you found will be the best match.  Though, if anyone does have some old stock wool carpeting, you may have luck contacting Putt Georgie.  Here is his website.  http://www.aro2000.com/2_tone_velour_carpet.htm

Do take note to Jon's commentary about the leather having to be skivved on the edges for the dash and top caps below the side windows.  A lot of it will have to be skived/shaved by hand with a hand skiver.  For other leather intricacies and what is correct and what isn't, have a look at this recent post by Shvegel

https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=30561.0

[austinado16]

Mind......blown!!!

Okay, so I'm a little bent out of shape that I thought I was doing the right thing by ordering from World, and now I read your other post and your info, and simply by going to the GAHH website, discover that the Cognac that world sells doesn't have the correct coloring for the speckles, which clearly on my car, in the untouched/unseen areas, is something like a maroon.  World's hide is speckled in what looks like a brown.   Dang it.  I also like the speckled Cognac that GAHH offers, better than the "look how spotted I am" pattern that World sells.

[wjsvb ✝︎]

If that's the worst mistake in your restoration process, my hat is off to you!