Soft top frame hinge diagram and parts?

[GM]

No sooner had I begun to get optimistic about starting my soft top canvas replacement after messing with the frame and installing the new springs, I discovered the right main hinge has a problem. It turns out the cast lever that moves with the small round spring is quite stiff and not as free moving as the left side. It also doesn’t “seat” at the rear when moving the top and forces the smaller round spring to pop out in the process. It seems that there is a problem within the hinge itself.
Does anyone have a diagram of what the mechanism is within the hinge and perhaps any parts to the hinge available? It's a pretty complex mechanism and there's a lot going on there.
Yes, the PO messed it up badly.
Thanks.

[mrfatboy]

Pictures please😀

[MikeSimon]

Not sure if this helps.

[GM]

Thanks, Mike.
Yes, I know about this (and other) exploded diagrams. My problem is within the hinge itself (maybe the main bolt is bent?), so I'll be taking it apart.
I'll post photos when it's opened up.

[114015]

A big Problem, Gary, indeed... 

Especially the late style softtop frames (A113 770 0702) tend to have this problem...,
they are often bent. The earlier 250 ST frame (A113 770 0502) has this problem also - due to its "click" geometrics or kinematics.
The earlier 230 frames (A113 770 0102 and 0402) tend  to have this problem much less since those have a much simpler kinematic mechanism with their ball-loaded snappers on their rear frame which folds up...

Gernold Nisius held a very informative tech session on the softtop canvases and frames on PagodaFest in Karlsbad last year..., their differences and their idiosyncracies
and your observation is a very common problem.

If you want to have it solved properly, you have to take your ST frame off and send it to him; he takes them apart and straightens the main hinge parts again.

I recommend talking to him first.
I dunno whether you can fix that problem in situ... on your own 


Good luck

Achim

[GM]

Thanks for the wise words, Achim. You are so correct.
I spoke with Gernold a few months ago when I started the project to re-do my soft top. His price is now $4000 USD + shipping. He said that a bicycle box works perfectly to ship the soft top frame, at a cost of about $300 each way. He said he takes orders and stacks them up for work over the winter, then no more work on these until the following winter. Once the weather improves he doesn't want to be indoors, although with the current lockdown, who knows (!)
I'm afraid you're right about doing this myself. I don't have the resources, space or tools to do this properly.
I took apart the hinge today to look for bends and found nothing out of the ordinary. Fresh lithium grease and re-assembled. All the pieces of the hinge were working freely off the car. When I re-installed the frame in the car I traced the source to a complex multi-angle bend in the bottom rib at the hinge that makes it act up when setting up and taking down.
I've managed to get it about 85% right - the right small round spring still pops off, so I'll have to live without it.
I don't anticipate needing the soft top very often so this will have to do.
On to re-installing the canvas... 

[chumps]

Gary, I just ran across your post about your soft top. I have the exact same problem you have/had. You said that you took your hinge apart to try and find your problem. It appears you have a 1971 sl as do I. The bolt that goes through the main hinge is center punched on the threaded end to keep it from coming loose. How did you get it out? And where did you find replacement bolts and bushings? Thanks for any suggestions. Chumps

[GM]

Yikes - more than 6 months ago - seems like another lifetime...
I went from being completely absorbed and focused on repairing the frame and replacing the canvas on the soft top, to leaving it behind me when it was all done, so I don't have an immediate answer to your question of how to take it apart. I had to spend a fair amount of time torqueing and twisting the frame to straighten it from the escapades of the previous owner. I have good records of replacing the canvas, but not exploring the details of the frame, unfortunately.

I recall in my conversation with Gernold that he said the hinge was an "eccentric" (my word) hinge, which is why it goes in two steps in erecting and collapsing the soft top (Step 1: pulling it out of the compartment ALL TOGETHER until you stop in the vertical position, before Step 2: proceeding to expand the front of the soft top to the windshield and folding the back part down).

He told me about the unique hinge, and said that this was a common problem, then offered to repair it for $4k + shipping. The answer was easy, and I gave up working on it. I figured it was about 85% ok - I could erect and collapse the top completely, it was straight and taut when up - and that was good enough for me since I keep the soft top stored all the time. It's this eccentricity in the hinge that gets messed up, which is where Gernold is making big money fixing these. I just looked up his website and he now charges $10k for a soft top rebuild. It looks like he doesn't need more work.

I'm no expert, but I recall that I just kept playing with it, opening and closing the frame off the car until I could see how it went together and operated, and that's when I saw the eccentric hinge. I did what I could to strip it down so I could lubricate, and then put everything back together.

While I'm here, a huge shoutout to Mrfatboy, who was an enormous help to me when I first got my car and joined this group. At the time we joked about having a "Gernold capability" on the West Coast, if for no other reason than to have an alternative, price-wise. Based on current pricing, it's getting more and more likely that someone needs to pick up this expertise.

Sorry I couldn't directly answer your question, but if you need any other help with it, don't hesitate to ping me. Good luck.

[chumps]

Thanks for your reply. I'm with you, $10K is far more than I would like to spend on something that still works, although not perfectly. I'm still tempted to do what you did - take it apart and fiddle with it without doing more damage. I'm just concerned about getting the bolts and bushings that I may damage taking it apart.

Chumps

[Shvegel]

$10,000 for a top from Gernold is for a frame he supplies and not refurbishment of your frame.  Gernold may be expensive but he is reliable and does things to a very high standard.  He also keeps a straight pagoda body to test fit the assembly on before it gets the new top.  I fix very large yachts for a living and deal with a ton of very high end contractors.  Most of them charge "Gernold money" and don't deliver anything near the quality.  He commands that price because he can. 

[chumps]

Shvegel, I'm have no doubt Gernold work is well worth the money he is asking. I have heard nothing but great things about him and his work. I'm just saying I have not got the money at the present time to send my top to him. I do like to tinker with things and try to correct them. It does appear to be something that is beyond my capabilities. I will most likely end up sending it to him. Thank you for your comment.

Chumps

[GM]

Good catch on the pricing, Shvegel - maybe the repair is only $4k

[114015]

Hello Gary,

Yes,
I think that's roughly the rate to talk about
(pls. ask him to reassure).

On the drawing diagram it is (usually) part no. 12 which is regularly bent or misaligned.
The complete frame needs to be disassembled to access this part
and correct it in a kind of jig again. This repair jig is nowhere available, even not at the factory.
Gernold has got it (self-made). 

That's why the repair is not only  $$ 500.00 or so.
Sadly, the late ST frames (like yours), the A113 770 0702 are most prone to this ...

Best,

Achim
(with A113 770 0102)

[chumps]

I have an apparently later model soft top frame (1971 280 SL). I took the frame apart to get the large spring connecter arm rewelded back on to left main hinge. I had to carefully grind the end of the long hinge bolts (about 2") to get them out. All went well disassembling. I ordered and received the 2 long bolts from SLS. I didn't notice until I was reassembling everything that the bolts I received from SLS were  approximately 1/8" shorter than the ones I took out. I contacted SLS and they stated that that is the only size bolt they offer. I believe those shorter bolts were for earlier top frames. Does anybody know of a source for the longer bolts. I can still use the bolts I took out, they are damaged but useable. I would prefer using new bolts. How can I secure these bolts without center punching them. Thank you for any help.

Chumps