Author Topic: Factory colour photo  (Read 5119 times)

mbzse

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Factory colour photo
« on: April 02, 2020, 17:05:57 »
An image showing W108 assembly in 1967. Engine is a M129 ( 250 SE/SL )
Note the semi-matte all-black sprayed rear and front axle assembly (brake pipes matt silver however)
and the grey-white exhaust manifolds.   Perhaps a useful guide.
PS. The large cylinder at the rear (with green marking) is a hydro-pneumatic self-leveling device, fitted to limousines and coupés DS.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2020, 23:38:10 by mbzse »
/Hans S

MikeSimon

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2020, 17:20:58 »
When I "derusted" the exhaust manifolds with "Metal Rescue" they came out with a light grey color. The instructions for the fluid say that the parts will take on a zinc-phosphate coating.
Maybe MB did something similar to the manifolds. I really doubt that they were painted.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
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Pawel66

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2020, 18:17:55 »
Gold colour calipers, black brake rotor hubs...
Very useful.
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

Aaron h

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2020, 20:36:52 »
Gold colour calipers, black brake rotor hubs...
Very useful.

But remember that the insides of the calipers that face the wheel wells were painted black.  Only the outside was left unpainted.  This applies to front and rear calipers. 

Pawel66

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2020, 20:52:23 »
Thank you, I did not know that...
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

wwheeler

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2020, 04:11:07 »
280 SE guy posted this picture a few years ago and we both agreed on the white/grey manifold color. He also has a super high resolution version of this picture. That same color was under an "after-the-fact" silver spray on the exhaust manifolds on my W128 220SE.  See attached. Those two pieces of evidence was enough to convince me what color to use.

White lightning has a coating that is very durable and is very similar to this color - http://swaintech.com/race-coatings/race-coating-descriptions/white-lightning-exhaust-coatings/

I did the manifolds on my 220SE with this coating and looks great. See attached. To date, I do not think anybody has disproven that this color was on the manifolds from the factory. So when I do the manifolds on the W111, that is what I will use unless it is proven otherwise.

 
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

Shvegel

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2020, 09:22:10 »
I also used the White Lightning coating although it would appear to me that the original coating was more of a refractory cement based coating of some type.

Aaron,
 I am curious about the comment you made about the calipers being painted black on the inside.  I have never seen any indication of this.  I don't doubt your knowledge as you seem very well informed but it doesn't make sense to me.  We all seem to agree the rear axle was painted as a unit after assemble including the control arms but not the spring perches or the springs.  The front axle was more or less painted as an assembly less springs and control arm attaching bolts.  The axles then had the brakes added as the rear rotor braking surfaces are unpainted as well as the entire front rotor less the hub and dust cap which was black.  So either they were painted along with the assembly, unbolted, rotors installed then bolted on again  or they were painted off the car on one side only but to what end?  so the inside that the customer never sees is protected while the outside where it can be visible with alloy wheels is allowed to weather?

Allowing that it is possible that the rear axle could have been painted with the rotors and calipers on using some form of mask for the rotor braking surface they would still have to cope with overspray getting between the caliper and the dust shield coating the rotor which I am sure would be a big German no no. 

 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 10:06:40 by Shvegel »

Aaron h

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2020, 13:43:22 »
Shvegal, the calipers were usually installed onto the axles before they were painted.  When painted, the insides of them were also painted. Like you, I have to assume that something was put over the outer parts of the rotors to prevent an excessive amount of overspray.  What little overspray got on the inside of the rotor was negligible.  Mercedes wasn't ever concerned with overspray, runs, or 100% coverage on the axle assemblies.  Even the parking brake cables were painted.  It was less time consuming to paint the axles with the calipers on than not, so I'm guessing that's why they did that.  Take note of the pictures below.  Some are swing axles, and some show a W114/W115, but these photos are out of a sales brochure for W108/W109, W113, W114, and W115 cars.  They were all being made at the same time, and since the W108 and W109 received the same front and rear axles I'm certain these pictures are representative of the W113, as well. 

Look closely at the calipers.  You'll see that the outsides are bare, while the insides are painted.  On the other picture of the caliper from the front notice the metal brake line going to the caliper is silver while the caliper it's connected to is black.  Granted, the metal lines going to the front calipers on a W113 were painted black with a light green inspection paint mark on the lower part where it attaches to the spindle.  The one picture showing the caliper from the front is likely a W114/W115 car.  I only included it because it shows the black painted caliper on the inside.  But also notice on the other pictures where the outer part of the caliper is not painted.  These are what I've always based my knowledge and restorations on.  I figure a picture is worth a thousand words. 

And by all means.....if any of you ever have a doubt about something I say please don't be afraid to speak up.  I'm not always right, and I make mistakes every day.  I don't get upset when I'm wrong about something.  What would make me upset is if I typed some misinformation and it was thought to be correct.  I, too, rely on all you for correctness. :) 

And in keeping with the original intent of the exhaust manifold colors, I've added some other factory pictures of manifolds.  To me they look like plain bare cast iron. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 13:58:46 by Aaron h »

mbzse

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2020, 14:09:58 »
Quote from: Aaron h
.../... factory pictures of manifolds.  To me they look like plain bare cast iron
I have looked at many cars, and the remains on the exhaust manifolds is some kind of treatment, definitely not bare cast metal
/Hans S

wwheeler

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2020, 18:14:05 »
No, not bare metal because it would have rusted completely like American car's manifolds. Like Han's, mine has that left over residue that the rust is blooming through. So there has to be something on the bare manifold. Definitely not a dark color and somewhere between white and silver. The exact color, who knows. I would agree the White lightning is probably too white now, but will change over time and maybe patina more like the original. We will just have to wait and see.   
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

Shvegel

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2020, 22:31:40 »
I watched an episode of "Graveyard Cars" Where they were detailing a Dodge 440 engine to show levels.  This entailed assembling the entire engine less carburetor and painting it orange top to bottom including the exhaust manifolds just like the factory did.

Aaron,
I think we might have to agree to disagree on the calipers.  I tend not to trust sales brochures since they often seem to be of parts that may have been spiffed up a bit even when they are shown on the assembly line.  The rear axle at the top looks like the same axle shot from behind that I have seen before.  It looks like everything on the assembly was painted including the aforementioned parking brake cables and clamps.  The reason I doubt this is I have seen a number of "Original" cars with unpainted clamps holding the brake cables including the first picture of the assembly line.  There have been a couple late 280's with super low miles that have been sold in the past couple years but the only picture I have are of the upper engine compartment.

I also just checked the BBB and the three picture showing the Brake calipers are all showing unpainted on both sides.  Again not a definitive on the car photo but another perspective.

« Last Edit: April 03, 2020, 23:05:01 by Shvegel »

wwheeler

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2020, 00:51:51 »
Not to get off too far on Mopar manifolds, but I have a '70 RR. They only painted the portion of the exhaust manifolds that was adjacent to the head with engine paint and that is only because it was overspray from the engine. They did not intentionally paint the manifolds nor was it complete coverage. And even then, the paint burned off within a couple of years. So 50 years later, the manifolds will have a complete rusted look and the original engine paint is long gone.

I think the coating Mercedes used has to be something different and more durable. For areas to still be present 60 years later, cannot simply be engine paint.       
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

Pawel66

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2020, 10:09:56 »
On the caliper colour discussion (I am not claiming they were gold/black or gold, I think others know much more than me to determine that), we have this factory picture for a long time. Is there caliper installed on the rear left wheel of this drive train on the production line? If there is caliper, it may be black, actually, I think you would see a gold element on the picture....
Pawel

280SL 1970 automatic 180G Silver
W128 220SE
W121 190SL
G-class

wwheeler

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2020, 18:24:54 »
I have a super Hi res version of that (232MB) and just looked it. I zoomed into the caliper area and I have to say, I think Aaron is correct. The backs of the calipers seem to be black, and the fronts gold. I can see this on both the front and the rears. I am not a digital picture guru, but I will try to crop these and see if I can post them.
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

wwheeler

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2020, 19:18:32 »
Here is the first. Even cropped and reduced to the bone, this is still a big file. I will probably have to send one at a time. This is the front left brake. Clearly gold on the outer, but can see over-spray from the black paint on the rotor. The others clearly show the back of the caliper being black. More to come....

NOTE for detailaholics - you can see a yellow dot on the bell housing bulge for the starter. Probably showing that the bolts were torqued.
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

wwheeler

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2020, 19:37:49 »
Next...rear brakes. No gold showing and only black on the left. You can see the brake line going into the caliper and there is no gold there at all.

For the right, you can see gold on the front. Seems pretty conclusive to me that the calipers were painted black on the back side. Who knows when they started this procedure, but they did during this photo. Next is a close up of the exhaust manifold to help resolve that mystery.

Another detail is the green vertical stripe on the hydro spring for us guys with these.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 23:15:38 by wwheeler »
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

wwheeler

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2020, 19:48:36 »
And finally the manifolds. First, they clearly do not have the same tint as the aluminum parts on the engine, more of a white. There is the engine mount arm right next to the manifold and they have different tints. You can see the "copper" nuts on the manifolds as well.

Second, the manifolds do not have a "shine" as does the aluminum parts or as the inside of the manifold. So there is some sort of dull coating on the outer surface of the manifold that reduces the shine.

What do you think?
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

MikeSimon

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2020, 20:05:37 »
Coming back to my earlier post. I think the exhaust manifolds show a rust prevention treatment that was put on by the foundry, not even by Mercedes Benz. Even more so today than back then, casting houses have to treat their parts before they deliver. I was really surprised to see the off-white hue on my manifolds after I derusted them.
1970/71 280SL Automatic
Sandy Beige
Parchment Leather
Power Steering
Automatic
Hardtop
Heated Tinted Rear Window
German specs
3rd owner

wwheeler

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2020, 22:52:24 »
Coming back to my earlier post. I think the exhaust manifolds show a rust prevention treatment that was put on by the foundry, not even by Mercedes Benz. Even more so today than back then, casting houses have to treat their parts before they deliver. I was really surprised to see the off-white hue on my manifolds after I derusted them.

Could have been applied by the vendor, sure. I don't think it was a paint either and wouldn't have lasted this long. I think we all agree that something extra was put on the manifolds and that they were not just bare cast iron that popped out of the casting.  I am not sure what techniques for high temperature rust prevention they had back then, but it was fairly effective. I am not sure the Phosphate coating itself would last anywhere near that long.   

Any thoughts on the calipers?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 23:21:07 by wwheeler »
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

Aaron h

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2020, 23:04:30 »
Well, as Shvegel suggested sometimes we have to agree to disagree.  He and others think opposite of what you and I think, so we just have to respect all points of view.  I'll always paint only the inside of the caliper and leave the outer half bare, and others will paint the whole caliper.   I choose to believe what I see in the factory pictures, as well as what I've personally seen over the years on low mileage original cars.  At the end of the day It's just paint.  I'm not too worried.   99.9% of judges wouldn't know the difference anyway, and most people wouldn't even bat an eye at any of it one way or the other. 

wwheeler

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2020, 23:16:49 »
Well, it is a green stripe actually. The 75 bar version of the Boge hydropneumatic

Corrected and thank you.
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

Shvegel

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2020, 23:32:45 »

wwheeler

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2020, 00:09:33 »
I'll always paint only the inside of the caliper and leave the outer half bare, and others will paint the whole caliper.   I choose to believe what I see in the factory pictures, as well as what I've personally seen over the years on low mileage original cars.   

I did spend a lot of time getting my calipers to the nice gold state that they are now. I am not going to paint them black for a couple of reasons. 1) My axle is power coated and don't want to spray black paint onto that 2) not sure how durable the factory chassis black paint was on hot running calipers. So it may be that much of the black burned off anyway. Just nice to see what was done at the factory and the challenge of trying to figure it out 50 some odd yeas later.
Wallace
Texas
'68 280SE W111 coupe
'60 220SE W128 coupe
'70 Plymouth Roadrunner 440+6

Aaron h

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2020, 00:25:12 »
This is kind of against what I stated and what I do, but I kind of hate leaving any part of the calipers without paint.  The yellow zinc chromate coating is nothing more than a sacrificial coating against corrosion, and with the environment they're in the zinc coating goes away in 5-7 years.  It's almost a catch-22

Shvegel

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Re: Factory colour photo
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2020, 01:14:32 »