Pagoda valuation

[SEB]

Gentleman’s
I was born in 1967, so I do not had any choice in selecting, what Pagoda I have to buy. I took the 250SL the rarest Pagoda with only 5.196 cars produced.

Usually in marketing or economy if a good is very rare it should be much more expensive than similar good build in bigger quantities. In case if the 250SL it do not work at least in Germany.

Does this situation concern only the German market or is it general? What is the reason?

Thank you in  advance for all inputs in explaining this strange situation.
Sebastian

[JamesL]

For some reason, the 280 is seen as “the one to have” both in the UK and US. Obviously there are good arguments against this but...

As for rare, 5000 units is not really rare. Rare compared to the 40+000 units of the w113 in total  but compared to a Ferrari or SWB 911 of the same time...? Or even the w108 3.5v8 convertible, or a 600/Grosser?

I’d love a 250, but have a 280.

[SEB]

I mean 5.196 only among the total production of all W113.
From the technical point of view the 250SL has all upgrades of 280SL (expect the 170PS engine) and compared to 230SL is it should be evaluated in the mid.

[JamesL]

The irrationality of markets...
However, a nice non-rusty 250 is always worth more than a rusty 280. Condition matters

[doitwright]

Brian Peters at MotoringInvestments.com has a 68 250 available. He has the condition described as “the best in the world”. Asking price  - “the most in the world”.

This car has been briefly discussed on these forums. The owner brought it to PagodaFest in San Diego last October. It truly is in remarkable condition and included some rarely seen accessories. At PagodaFest the owner explained that he anticipated a restoration when he purchased the car new and started collecting factory parts almost from day 1 of ownership. He also claimed that he once owned a 300SL Gullwing.

[Garry]

And the owner of that 250 at Brian Peters is setting the price not Brian Peters and doesn’t care if it sells or not.  
In other words he was not a serious seller unless there was a bigger fool that was prepared to part with his money so i don’t think you can take that price as a bench mark for anything other than an old mans wet dream.

[doitwright]

In San Diego the owner touted that he was looking to get $250K. Now that it is with MI, the new asking price would seem to reflect a 10% broker fee.

Gary, your comment reflects the same impression I got listening to the old man talk.

[SEB]

Gentleman’s
I propose to focus more on the reason why is so? And if everywhere or we have only in Germany this situation?

James commented this with the irrationality of the markets. But what is the reason?

Few years ago I had the honour to meet Paul Bracq. He could not explain it, but he told me, that the reason, why the 250SL was build only one year was the push from the market to Mercedes for more power. The 150PS compared to Jaguar or Italian and US Cars where not so much at that time.

[mbzse]

.../...Does this situation concern only the German market or is it general? What is the reason?.../...

It is a general (world-wide) trend/fact.
One reason is, the M129 engine (in the 250 SL 113.043) is a bit sensitive, the two rear cylinders (towards firewall) are prone to overheating.
Often there are busted head gaskets or other tangles with these engines. I think this was even more pronounced in the 1960's and 1970's, and the reputation was established then and continues to this day.

[MikeSimon]

A lot of potential buyers (those who are in the end responsible for setting the value/price of a vehicle) are not really very technical and don't look that much at detailed differences. They consider the 250SL somewhat "in the middle". Not as desirable as the early 230SLs and not as desirable as the last, "most advanced" version, the 280SL.
Also, a car produced in lower numbers may have some parts availability issues due to unique features of this particular model. Something that puts a damper on a price.

[JN]

I always wondered the same thing Sebastian
Also there are early 250 sl and late 250 sl
The early ones have gooseneck mirrors and chrome rearview mirrors also hard door pockets with chrome trim and also colored see through plastic heater knobs
These are all carry overs from the 230 sl
If there is any model that should be more valuable or sought after IMHO
it should be the early 250 sl

Jerry

[SEB]

One reason is, the M129 engine (in the 250 SL 113.043) is a bit sensitive, the two rear cylinders (towards firewall) are prone to overheating.
Often there are busted head gaskets or other tangles with these engines. I think this was even more pronounced in the 1960's and 1970's, and the reputation was established then and continues to this day.

Yes! I heard also about the rumours, that the M129.982 engine were overheating very often, but I asked about this gossip a retired Chief of Mercedes Benz service station in Bremen, who started his career in the 1960s and grow up with this engines. He said, that M129 engines were neither more nor less overheating than the others.

Today we will call it maybe a “fake news”?

An other friend, who was in the past in Mercedes Benz Top Management positions told me, that the reason is the engine- but the engine due to the fact, that the output of the M129 engine was similar than in the limousine. And so we have for:
M127- in 230 SL +30PS
M129- in 250 SL +0 PS
M130 – in 280SL +10PS.
This sounds more reasonable?

BTW- why during also short life of M130 the engine was improved and we have two version's?

[Garry]

If you search on this Forum on over heating problems, you will find the majority by far are with the M130 engine. Just saying.....

[MikeSimon]

If you search on this Forum on over heating problems, you will find the majority by far are with the M130 engine. Just saying.....

I thought this was exactly why MB made changes to the M130 engine and that's why we have the different heads.

[SEB]

Jerry
Fact is, that most of the people/ customers are “followers”, so they follow the trend not so really understanding the reason.

I am member of one of the Mercedes Clubs in Germany and out of 350 registered Pagoda’s owner only 21 are the 250SL owners. So much less than it should be.

So is the 250 SL dedicated for nonconformists? 

[SEB]

I am not an expert on M130
But I invest in an inheritance of old Mercedes engines ( about 50 pcs) consisting in a range from 200D to 6.3.

Among the M130, at least 4 engines had the same failure damage to the crankshaft between the 4th and 5th cylinder. Coincidence?

[RobSirg]

Hi Sebastian,

I also have a Tunis Beige, 4 Speed, Early 250SL (RHD) which I have been driving a lot lately. I also have 2 x 280SL's  - I have to say I (like most of us) appreciate the early appointments of the early Pagoda's (Extra Chrome, etc). Sadly mine does not have the Gooseneck side mirrors - possibly an error of a previous owner. But I have all the other chrome trims and PS.

Car drives beautifully - especially in manual form.

The anomaly in the values still doesn't make sense to me. I think it is truly is an anomaly. Other marques (E-Type, etc) have higher values for the earlier models that have lower production numbers and are more aesthetically pleasing (like the 250SL).

Do I think it will change and correct itself? - no I don't. MB owners seems to be a fickle bunch and have decreed (probably for good reason) that the 280SL is the 'one to have', and values are likely to stay that way.
Just my opinion of course 

FYI - I was first intent on buying a 250SL for the reasons I stated above until a car enthusiast friend of mine said  - "the 280SL is the one to have" …..so, like a sheep....I followed (no complaints there). The only reason I eventually bought a 250SL (after the 2 x 280SL's) was because it was a good deal - too good to pass up.

[Garry]

Rob,


I would happily relieve you of your 250sl. When you are ready to part with it of course.  I need a second Pagoda in the garage...


Garry

[SEB]

Hello Rob
Nice to meet a colleague, who has the same nearly car specification. My car has leather in cognac colour combination-216. I'm curious in what colour interior is your Pagoda?

Regarding the valuation I agree, that the valuation of the 250SL should be at least in the middle positioned – taking under the consideration the numbers and the technical advance  (brakes, engine, fuel tank etc.) of each model.

I think, that we should create a subgroup here in this forum in order to support each other and change the trend ;-).

Due to the fact, that I was born in 1967 I have also a ’67 W111 Coupe and some others cars from this year.

But what can be interesting maybe also  for you. I have a quite nice stock of M129 engines- 3 pcs complete. On German market this engines are getting rare, so I purchased some just for any case.

Best wishes to far Australia!
Sebastian

[SEB]

Hello Gary,

Taking the opportunity, that you join to this discussion may I ask you about the possibility to create some additional fields in the members records like for instance – the model or colour?

I  think, that this could help us to find some other members with the similar engine or help to create some statistics in the future.

Sebastian

[RobSirg]

Rob,


I would happily relieve you of your 250sl. When you are ready to part with it of course.  I need a second Pagoda in the garage...
Garry

Hi Gary,
I think you are spending too much time with our good friend Jimmy 
One Pagoda is more than enough - but it can be handy to have 2 so you can drive one whilst the other one is being restored or improved. I kept the 250SL as a “driver” that l could later “flip”, but getting too fond of it now.
The colour also attracts a lot of attention - as Sebastian will be all too aware of.

[RobSirg]

Hello Rob
Nice to meet a colleague, who has the same nearly car specification. My car has leather in cognac colour combination-216. I'm curious in what colour interior is your Pagoda?

Hi Sebastian,

Cognac is my favourite interior - you are indeed fortunate. It must look great!

My car originally had black MB Tex ( I’m not fond of Black interiors). However, a previous owner changed the Seats and Doors to Tan ( Bamboo) which l think looks better. Carpet is also not correct.

I’m trying to resist the temptation to restore or improve this car, and just keep it as a driver. ( as l tend to get carried away with restorations).
I recently put in a Becker radio and had the steering wheel hub painted to match the Bamboo interior.
I’m a purist at heart but not offended by the two-tone interior ......so it stays for now 

[Garry]

Rob,


When you are ready, call me first.  I have been looking for a decent early 250 for a couple of years. Most that come up are Californian Coupes which for Melbourne is not much chop.


Seb,
Achim is the Board  Member looking after the list of members cars and is in fact currently looking at the whole list to see if there is a better way to organise it with a standard format that could then be sorted.  I am sure he will see this post and make note of your suggestion.


Garry

[SEB]

Hi Rob
I agree, that also in my case the colour made the decision. Originally I searched for a  Pagoda in silver (180G), but as I have seen the Pagoda in gold it was a love at first sight/
Also I m thinking about a second Pagoda, as a daily driver, where I can also put all my ideas inside - not keep the originality (GETRAG, 15" rims, other brakes, a console in the middle etc)
If you start to restore from my experience  it will be a never ending story and finally you get a concurse level Pagoda.
Regarding the interior I have seen also gold Pagodas with olive or dark brown interior- also nice color combination.

Best wishes
Sebastian

[SEB]

Hello Gary
thank you for your reply. As I mentioned previously such additional fields will give us a lot of valuable information, what could be later used.
Sebastian